Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Wheres all of the normal Lab burms at anyway? I was realy hoping to pick up a few in Daytona but after walking untill the soles of my shoes came off and the blisters ruptured, I didnt see a single one. There was a couple of albino labs there though. Anyway does anybody plan on producing these animals again or are they just ancient history? -Shaun D

You are absolutely right. In the world of herpetoculture, it is, for the most part, all about being the "first" to breed a certain morph and making the almighty dollar. The "Lab" burm is a beautiful morph and one of my favorites because it maintains the "natural" color variants of the types of burms we typically see in the wild. Personally, though, I still find a nicely patterned and colored "normal" burm to be the creme de la creme of beauty in this species. But, you can't make money breeding normal burms so we set our sights on the newest morphs. Labs don't make money any more so it's on to the next "project". So where does it all stop? It doesn't! The cycle will continue as long as breeders are making money completely ignorant (perhaps deliberately so) of the fact that most of the burms, regardless of how much they cost, will eventually become abandoned. My stats at the wildlife center will prove this point. I realize this is far from what you originally answered as I know that this is far beyond the scope of your question, however, I just wanted to vent a bit (please accept my apologies for using your question to stage a bit of a rant). It isn't the folks buying burms that are teh problem. It really isn't the pet stores either (even though they don't help the situation with their utterly bogus advice that many give). Heck, I wouldn't even say it is the filthy reptile swaps (one that is close to me) that are the major source of concern. It is the breeders plain and simple. Now, guys, before you take your shot guns out and point them at my name on the screen, lets face reality. We pump out burms as if they are corn snakes. I breed snakes too (but stick with herps that the "average" person can handle). Irregardless of our intentions and how well we "educate" our customers, a burm is a burm....meaning, a burm is going to get big and ALL of the education in the world isn't going to help the 99% of the people wishing to get a burm but shouldn't. That leaves a lot of homeless burms to deal with! Don't get me wrong. I LOVE burms and absolutely LOVE working with them. They are a major attraction at our wildlife center because people love to see big snakes BUT, they simply don't make good pets because MOST people just don't put in the time, energy, resources, commitment, eye for detail and safety that is needed to keep them responsibly. So, should people not keep burms? Absolutely NOT...if someone truly wants to keep a burm I think that is great and their right to do so. Does this mean that breeders shouldn't continue to pump out tens of thousands of baby burms each year? NO. But what I am saying is that we need to be willing to admit where the problem lies. But, then again, maybe spending 6 hours in blazing 100 degree heat as part of my field research (long term herp survey) has taken its toll on my good judgement.

Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center - City of Lake Forest (IL)

All that you say here, with your statistics and figures can not be deduced from taking in 35 rescues anually in one reptile center in one city in one state. How can you say that more than 50% of "all burms" will be abandoned regardless of value? Or that 99.9% of all burmese purchasers have no business buying them? How do you reach these statistics? Honestly, I have no clue. I have to STRONGLY disagree with ALL of it. In my 30 years of keeping and 20 years of breeding I have witnessed more positive results. MUCH more often than not the people love and respect the animal and learn about it and keep it for the length of its lifespan. Furthermore, I know several people that run rescues in my state and high end morphs are not abandoned. When was the last time you took in an albino retic?

And to say that it is the breeder, pure and simple where the problem lies. How do you come to this blanket statement conclusion? I know a lot of breeders besides myself that would not sell their offspring if they thought there was even a remote chance that the owner was not a suitable reptile keeper in it for the duration of the snakes' life. I personally would refuse to sell something to a person if they seem like they would be the type to abandon it at any point and I make it VERY clear that I will take the snake back at any time in the future if they choose to not have it anymore AND to give them fair trade-in value on something else so they are not out any purchase price.

And how can you state that the pet shops aren't the problem with the exception of bad advice?? It is the pet shops that sell any given animal to any shmoe that has enough money. The pet shops are the single most damaging contributor to any existing abandoned reptiles problem in my opinion. That's common sense! When a person goes to a private breeder they generally know what they want, what it is, and how big it gets and the WHOLE 9 YARDS. And let me tell you something else,.. I have known a lot of people over the last 20 serious years of my reptile keeping experience and none of them have abandoned the burmese that they got in the early 80's. In fact, I have never known anyone personally that has just abandoned their burms in a shelter. Anyone I have ever known would take the time to find a good home with a capable herper if changes in their lives forced them to get rid of their reptiles. I still have many reptiles that I had in the 70's and 80's and 90's. When I retire breeders or the market doesn't warrant producing that animal anymore I still keep them as pets and take good care of them. They all have names and are greatly valued to us. And I know that I am certainly not the only person like this. I won't ever abandon any of my pets/breeders, and I can think of a number of people on this very forum that I just KNOW will still have their retics and burms 20 years from now. And if they breed their snakes I would wager that they would place their offspring in good, capable homes. It is the @$$hole breeders that sell all their offspring to lousy pet shops that contribute to any abandonment problems. Not the folks that love and respect the reptiles and the hobby.

I still can't believe you posted this. Good day.

>>You are absolutely right. In the world of herpetoculture, it is, for the most part, all about being the "first" to breed a certain morph and making the almighty dollar. The "Lab" burm is a beautiful morph and one of my favorites because it maintains the "natural" color variants of the types of burms we typically see in the wild. Personally, though, I still find a nicely patterned and colored "normal" burm to be the creme de la creme of beauty in this species. But, you can't make money breeding normal burms so we set our sights on the newest morphs. Labs don't make money any more so it's on to the next "project". So where does it all stop? It doesn't! The cycle will continue as long as breeders are making money completely ignorant (perhaps deliberately so) of the fact that most of the burms, regardless of how much they cost, will eventually become abandoned. My stats at the wildlife center will prove this point. I realize this is far from what you originally answered as I know that this is far beyond the scope of your question, however, I just wanted to vent a bit (please accept my apologies for using your question to stage a bit of a rant). It isn't the folks buying burms that are teh problem. It really isn't the pet stores either (even though they don't help the situation with their utterly bogus advice that many give). Heck, I wouldn't even say it is the filthy reptile swaps (one that is close to me) that are the major source of concern. It is the breeders plain and simple. Now, guys, before you take your shot guns out and point them at my name on the screen, lets face reality. We pump out burms as if they are corn snakes. I breed snakes too (but stick with herps that the "average" person can handle). Irregardless of our intentions and how well we "educate" our customers, a burm is a burm....meaning, a burm is going to get big and ALL of the education in the world isn't going to help the 99% of the people wishing to get a burm but shouldn't. That leaves a lot of homeless burms to deal with! Don't get me wrong. I LOVE burms and absolutely LOVE working with them. They are a major attraction at our wildlife center because people love to see big snakes BUT, they simply don't make good pets because MOST people just don't put in the time, energy, resources, commitment, eye for detail and safety that is needed to keep them responsibly. So, should people not keep burms? Absolutely NOT...if someone truly wants to keep a burm I think that is great and their right to do so. Does this mean that breeders shouldn't continue to pump out tens of thousands of baby burms each year? NO. But what I am saying is that we need to be willing to admit where the problem lies. But, then again, maybe spending 6 hours in blazing 100 degree heat as part of my field research (long term herp survey) has taken its toll on my good judgement.
>>
>>Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
>>The Wildlife Discovery Center - City of Lake Forest (IL)
-----
If 50% of one's enemies are still breathing,... it just means you're doing a half-assed job.

Brian's right.
The pet shops That will tell you anything you want to hear to sell you something, From saying you can keep a full grown burm in a 55 gallon fish tank. ( I Heard them say that to someone interested in buying a burm at pet shop down on South high street), To saying all you need for a bearded draggon is a tank and bowl of water and a buncha crickets (the crickets , if to big , will choke the baby draggons , and you cant put a bowl of water in with a baby draggon cause they will drown themselves , or will die of dehidration because there to afraid to get close to deep water), And the shop's that will sell a snake to a 8 yearold that has 10 bucks no questions asked. ( I'v seen this happen before , it wasnt a burm but still , 8 or 9 yearsold , And Not with his Parents).
And Rob's right.
You have breeders that sell outright to anyone. Eather in person or in 10 , 20 , 50 , 100 lot's to an internet screen name with no personal contact and a care sheat.
If the breeders wouldnt sell there snakes to the Pet shops that only cared about selling the snake (animal) before the cost outweighed the proffet , It still wouldnt make as much of a dent in the problum because geting told that this snake is going to get 15 feet and 100 pounds , Is Just Not the same As 3 or 4 years down the road when it is, and there having to take care of it first hand , Needing more than one person to move it , cleaning up pounds of poo , Feeding rabbits that can run up to 20 bucks , depending where you go around here.
Thinking you can handle it , and actually doing it , are 2 verry diffrent things , it becomes to much of a chore and they dont want to do it anymore.
I wish i had a dime for everytime me and my wife groaned because we hade to move the snakes to clean the cages ( It takes both of us to move two out of our three because of there size, it's to much for most people, in these days of cell phones and microwaves.
I'm rambling and i'v kinda lost my point. So i'll restate it ,, There's no Point in arguing about it.
I'd say ,, just a guess now , That most breeders are in it for a money ,
Brian , You make a living off it , so dont say it's not about money, or you wouldnt be doing it for money at all, You'd be breeding them and giving them away for free. Even you have to admit that. I'm not saying that if you had a choice of taking a loss , or selling a snake , that you to do the latter , I'm just saying that , as rob said ,, Most would make the sale. It's a fact.
It's a catch 22 guys.
Is it the breeders fault ? Yes.
Is it the pet shops ? Yes.
Is it the person that buy's it ? Yes.
In some cases , Is it nobody's fault and you just have to admit that $hit happens sometimes ? Yes.
Your both right.
And you two trading posts about your "Both Good arguments" realy isnt going to chang anything.
And that's the truth.
Seth Mason.

PS:If i had to chose a reason , at gunpoint , I'd have to say it's the breeders , Sorry brian , But here is why. If said breeder didnt sell said snake to said pet shop ,, then everything that comes after the first sale to the pet shop , Wouldnt happen.
They wouldnt be starved to death till they were sold to keep prices down.
They wouldnt get bought by someone that's going to abuse them.
It wouldnt get dumped into a rescue when it get's bigger.
And there wouldnt be anything to argue about.

>>All that you say here, with your statistics and figures can not be deduced from taking in 35 rescues anually in one reptile center in one city in one state. How can you say that more than 50% of "all burms" will be abandoned regardless of value? Or that 99.9% of all burmese purchasers have no business buying them? How do you reach these statistics? Honestly, I have no clue. I have to STRONGLY disagree with ALL of it. In my 30 years of keeping and 20 years of breeding I have witnessed more positive results. MUCH more often than not the people love and respect the animal and learn about it and keep it for the length of its lifespan. Furthermore, I know several people that run rescues in my state and high end morphs are not abandoned. When was the last time you took in an albino retic?
>>
>> And to say that it is the breeder, pure and simple where the problem lies. How do you come to this blanket statement conclusion? I know a lot of breeders besides myself that would not sell their offspring if they thought there was even a remote chance that the owner was not a suitable reptile keeper in it for the duration of the snakes' life. I personally would refuse to sell something to a person if they seem like they would be the type to abandon it at any point and I make it VERY clear that I will take the snake back at any time in the future if they choose to not have it anymore AND to give them fair trade-in value on something else so they are not out any purchase price.
>>
>> And how can you state that the pet shops aren't the problem with the exception of bad advice?? It is the pet shops that sell any given animal to any shmoe that has enough money. The pet shops are the single most damaging contributor to any existing abandoned reptiles problem in my opinion. That's common sense! When a person goes to a private breeder they generally know what they want, what it is, and how big it gets and the WHOLE 9 YARDS. And let me tell you something else,.. I have known a lot of people over the last 20 serious years of my reptile keeping experience and none of them have abandoned the burmese that they got in the early 80's. In fact, I have never known anyone personally that has just abandoned their burms in a shelter. Anyone I have ever known would take the time to find a good home with a capable herper if changes in their lives forced them to get rid of their reptiles. I still have many reptiles that I had in the 70's and 80's and 90's. When I retire breeders or the market doesn't warrant producing that animal anymore I still keep them as pets and take good care of them. They all have names and are greatly valued to us. And I know that I am certainly not the only person like this. I won't ever abandon any of my pets/breeders, and I can think of a number of people on this very forum that I just KNOW will still have their retics and burms 20 years from now. And if they breed their snakes I would wager that they would place their offspring in good, capable homes. It is the @$$hole breeders that sell all their offspring to lousy pet shops that contribute to any abandonment problems. Not the folks that love and respect the reptiles and the hobby.
>>
>>I still can't believe you posted this. Good day.
>>
>>
>>>>You are absolutely right. In the world of herpetoculture, it is, for the most part, all about being the "first" to breed a certain morph and making the almighty dollar. The "Lab" burm is a beautiful morph and one of my favorites because it maintains the "natural" color variants of the types of burms we typically see in the wild. Personally, though, I still find a nicely patterned and colored "normal" burm to be the creme de la creme of beauty in this species. But, you can't make money breeding normal burms so we set our sights on the newest morphs. Labs don't make money any more so it's on to the next "project". So where does it all stop? It doesn't! The cycle will continue as long as breeders are making money completely ignorant (perhaps deliberately so) of the fact that most of the burms, regardless of how much they cost, will eventually become abandoned. My stats at the wildlife center will prove this point. I realize this is far from what you originally answered as I know that this is far beyond the scope of your question, however, I just wanted to vent a bit (please accept my apologies for using your question to stage a bit of a rant). It isn't the folks buying burms that are teh problem. It really isn't the pet stores either (even though they don't help the situation with their utterly bogus advice that many give). Heck, I wouldn't even say it is the filthy reptile swaps (one that is close to me) that are the major source of concern. It is the breeders plain and simple. Now, guys, before you take your shot guns out and point them at my name on the screen, lets face reality. We pump out burms as if they are corn snakes. I breed snakes too (but stick with herps that the "average" person can handle). Irregardless of our intentions and how well we "educate" our customers, a burm is a burm....meaning, a burm is going to get big and ALL of the education in the world isn't going to help the 99% of the people wishing to get a burm but shouldn't. That leaves a lot of homeless burms to deal with! Don't get me wrong. I LOVE burms and absolutely LOVE working with them. They are a major attraction at our wildlife center because people love to see big snakes BUT, they simply don't make good pets because MOST people just don't put in the time, energy, resources, commitment, eye for detail and safety that is needed to keep them responsibly. So, should people not keep burms? Absolutely NOT...if someone truly wants to keep a burm I think that is great and their right to do so. Does this mean that breeders shouldn't continue to pump out tens of thousands of baby burms each year? NO. But what I am saying is that we need to be willing to admit where the problem lies. But, then again, maybe spending 6 hours in blazing 100 degree heat as part of my field research (long term herp survey) has taken its toll on my good judgement.
>>>>
>>>>Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
>>>>The Wildlife Discovery Center - City of Lake Forest (IL)
>>-----
>>If 50% of one's enemies are still breathing,... it just means you're doing a half-assed job.
-----
Seth Mason.
Do lesbian frogs think they taste like chicken too ?

And by the way, I don't like to get into arguments here, most especially with someone whom I either respect or once respected. But a lot of those statements cut real deep.

But the thing that you seem to be overlooking is that the pet shops will get these animals to peddle regardless of where they come from. So if they don't get them captive produced from breeders, they will get imported snakes and sell those. So,.. even though I am strongly opposed to pet shops and the way they conduct business and exploit the animals without a care for their wellbeing, (generally) I would prefer to see them dealing with captive bred animals. Now,... I would NEVER allow any of my offspring to end up in the hands of ANY pet store. I get offers all the time, and quite decent offers at that. But I WON'T do it! My conscience and my dislike for hypocracy won't allow for it. And to answer your question about the money, Seth,... yes and no. By this I mean, I am really only concerned with making enough to cover all my overhead and to make a decent living. I am currently still in the overhead period on my high-end purchases from the last couple years, so until this is behind me I will ask a relatively standard, high price for my offspring, but always 10% less than the market rate based on other breeders' listed prices. But once my overhead is behind me I am lowering my prices in an incredible way and virtually everyone will be able to afford one of the once hard to get high end morphs (all with a 100% return policy, mind you). I have a lot of reasons for doing this. And I won't go into them here in a public forum. But they are good reasons. But amongst them is the fact that I don't live a luxurious life and I never will. I am not a greedy person and can get by with relatively simple things and a fairly simple life. I don't long for a mansion and a yacht. Or tenis courts and lamborginis. So once I am flying somewhat steady and stable I am going to just focus on getting by in a modestly decent way. If this doesn't prove I don't really care only about money I don't know what does. I just want my freedom and my pets to be well cared for,. a couple employees to maintain my business and at best a comfortable security blanket. But above all else I just like my freedom. I like having my time to myself. With nothing but free time each and every day I already consider myself to be "wealthy". I actually despise money, just so it is known. But in modern society it is a necessary tool to get by. So I view it simply as a tool I must have. But I'll never respect it and I'll forever hate what it does to people. It's truly an evil thing, money.

Sorry for the ramble.

>>Brian's right.
>>The pet shops That will tell you anything you want to hear to sell you something, From saying you can keep a full grown burm in a 55 gallon fish tank. ( I Heard them say that to someone interested in buying a burm at pet shop down on South high street), To saying all you need for a bearded draggon is a tank and bowl of water and a buncha crickets (the crickets , if to big , will choke the baby draggons , and you cant put a bowl of water in with a baby draggon cause they will drown themselves , or will die of dehidration because there to afraid to get close to deep water), And the shop's that will sell a snake to a 8 yearold that has 10 bucks no questions asked. ( I'v seen this happen before , it wasnt a burm but still , 8 or 9 yearsold , And Not with his Parents).
>>And Rob's right.
>>You have breeders that sell outright to anyone. Eather in person or in 10 , 20 , 50 , 100 lot's to an internet screen name with no personal contact and a care sheat.
>>If the breeders wouldnt sell there snakes to the Pet shops that only cared about selling the snake (animal) before the cost outweighed the proffet , It still wouldnt make as much of a dent in the problum because geting told that this snake is going to get 15 feet and 100 pounds , Is Just Not the same As 3 or 4 years down the road when it is, and there having to take care of it first hand , Needing more than one person to move it , cleaning up pounds of poo , Feeding rabbits that can run up to 20 bucks , depending where you go around here.
>>Thinking you can handle it , and actually doing it , are 2 verry diffrent things , it becomes to much of a chore and they dont want to do it anymore.
>>I wish i had a dime for everytime me and my wife groaned because we hade to move the snakes to clean the cages ( It takes both of us to move two out of our three because of there size, it's to much for most people, in these days of cell phones and microwaves.
>>I'm rambling and i'v kinda lost my point. So i'll restate it ,, There's no Point in arguing about it.
>>I'd say ,, just a guess now , That most breeders are in it for a money ,
>>Brian , You make a living off it , so dont say it's not about money, or you wouldnt be doing it for money at all, You'd be breeding them and giving them away for free. Even you have to admit that. I'm not saying that if you had a choice of taking a loss , or selling a snake , that you to do the latter , I'm just saying that , as rob said ,, Most would make the sale. It's a fact.
>>It's a catch 22 guys.
>>Is it the breeders fault ? Yes.
>>Is it the pet shops ? Yes.
>>Is it the person that buy's it ? Yes.
>>In some cases , Is it nobody's fault and you just have to admit that $hit happens sometimes ? Yes.
>>Your both right.
>>And you two trading posts about your "Both Good arguments" realy isnt going to chang anything.
>>And that's the truth.
>>Seth Mason.
>>
>>PS:If i had to chose a reason , at gunpoint , I'd have to say it's the breeders , Sorry brian , But here is why. If said breeder didnt sell said snake to said pet shop ,, then everything that comes after the first sale to the pet shop , Wouldnt happen.
>>They wouldnt be starved to death till they were sold to keep prices down.
>>They wouldnt get bought by someone that's going to abuse them.
>>It wouldnt get dumped into a rescue when it get's bigger.
>>And there wouldnt be anything to argue about.
>>
>>>>All that you say here, with your statistics and figures can not be deduced from taking in 35 rescues anually in one reptile center in one city in one state. How can you say that more than 50% of "all burms" will be abandoned regardless of value? Or that 99.9% of all burmese purchasers have no business buying them? How do you reach these statistics? Honestly, I have no clue. I have to STRONGLY disagree with ALL of it. In my 30 years of keeping and 20 years of breeding I have witnessed more positive results. MUCH more often than not the people love and respect the animal and learn about it and keep it for the length of its lifespan. Furthermore, I know several people that run rescues in my state and high end morphs are not abandoned. When was the last time you took in an albino retic?
>>>>
>>>> And to say that it is the breeder, pure and simple where the problem lies. How do you come to this blanket statement conclusion? I know a lot of breeders besides myself that would not sell their offspring if they thought there was even a remote chance that the owner was not a suitable reptile keeper in it for the duration of the snakes' life. I personally would refuse to sell something to a person if they seem like they would be the type to abandon it at any point and I make it VERY clear that I will take the snake back at any time in the future if they choose to not have it anymore AND to give them fair trade-in value on something else so they are not out any purchase price.
>>>>
>>>> And how can you state that the pet shops aren't the problem with the exception of bad advice?? It is the pet shops that sell any given animal to any shmoe that has enough money. The pet shops are the single most damaging contributor to any existing abandoned reptiles problem in my opinion. That's common sense! When a person goes to a private breeder they generally know what they want, what it is, and how big it gets and the WHOLE 9 YARDS. And let me tell you something else,.. I have known a lot of people over the last 20 serious years of my reptile keeping experience and none of them have abandoned the burmese that they got in the early 80's. In fact, I have never known anyone personally that has just abandoned their burms in a shelter. Anyone I have ever known would take the time to find a good home with a capable herper if changes in their lives forced them to get rid of their reptiles. I still have many reptiles that I had in the 70's and 80's and 90's. When I retire breeders or the market doesn't warrant producing that animal anymore I still keep them as pets and take good care of them. They all have names and are greatly valued to us. And I know that I am certainly not the only person like this. I won't ever abandon any of my pets/breeders, and I can think of a number of people on this very forum that I just KNOW will still have their retics and burms 20 years from now. And if they breed their snakes I would wager that they would place their offspring in good, capable homes. It is the @$$hole breeders that sell all their offspring to lousy pet shops that contribute to any abandonment problems. Not the folks that love and respect the reptiles and the hobby.
>>>>
>>>>I still can't believe you posted this. Good day.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>You are absolutely right. In the world of herpetoculture, it is, for the most part, all about being the "first" to breed a certain morph and making the almighty dollar. The "Lab" burm is a beautiful morph and one of my favorites because it maintains the "natural" color variants of the types of burms we typically see in the wild. Personally, though, I still find a nicely patterned and colored "normal" burm to be the creme de la creme of beauty in this species. But, you can't make money breeding normal burms so we set our sights on the newest morphs. Labs don't make money any more so it's on to the next "project". So where does it all stop? It doesn't! The cycle will continue as long as breeders are making money completely ignorant (perhaps deliberately so) of the fact that most of the burms, regardless of how much they cost, will eventually become abandoned. My stats at the wildlife center will prove this point. I realize this is far from what you originally answered as I know that this is far beyond the scope of your question, however, I just wanted to vent a bit (please accept my apologies for using your question to stage a bit of a rant). It isn't the folks buying burms that are teh problem. It really isn't the pet stores either (even though they don't help the situation with their utterly bogus advice that many give). Heck, I wouldn't even say it is the filthy reptile swaps (one that is close to me) that are the major source of concern. It is the breeders plain and simple. Now, guys, before you take your shot guns out and point them at my name on the screen, lets face reality. We pump out burms as if they are corn snakes. I breed snakes too (but stick with herps that the "average" person can handle). Irregardless of our intentions and how well we "educate" our customers, a burm is a burm....meaning, a burm is going to get big and ALL of the education in the world isn't going to help the 99% of the people wishing to get a burm but shouldn't. That leaves a lot of homeless burms to deal with! Don't get me wrong. I LOVE burms and absolutely LOVE working with them. They are a major attraction at our wildlife center because people love to see big snakes BUT, they simply don't make good pets because MOST people just don't put in the time, energy, resources, commitment, eye for detail and safety that is needed to keep them responsibly. So, should people not keep burms? Absolutely NOT...if someone truly wants to keep a burm I think that is great and their right to do so. Does this mean that breeders shouldn't continue to pump out tens of thousands of baby burms each year? NO. But what I am saying is that we need to be willing to admit where the problem lies. But, then again, maybe spending 6 hours in blazing 100 degree heat as part of my field research (long term herp survey) has taken its toll on my good judgement.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Rob Carmichael, Director/Curator
>>>>>>The Wildlife Discovery Center - City of Lake Forest (IL)
>>>>-----
>>>>If 50% of one's enemies are still breathing,... it just means you're doing a half-assed job.
>>-----
>>Seth Mason.
>>Do lesbian frogs think they taste like chicken too ?
-----
If 50% of one's enemies are still breathing,... it just means you're doing a half-assed job.

>> But once my overhead is behind me I am lowering my prices in an incredible way and virtually everyone will be able to afford one of the once hard to get high end morphs....

Or put more plainly, your ultimate aim is to produce giant snakes and sell them cheap.

Of course when a new morph costs thousands of dollars, THOSE animals aren’t the ones which are poorly treated. But clutches are large and prices fall rapidly. It’s when Joe Blow who’s never kept a snake in his life sees how inexpensively he can acquire a retic, burm or rock – those are the animals that end up on the scrap heap. It is either extremely naïve or extremely disingenuous for you to say you intend to be the largest breeder of giant snakes on the planet (this while spurning pet shop sales and selling only to the end user) AND that you will take back any and all animals your customers no longer want. At any rate, that guarantee would be a guarantee that you would be opening up your collection to all sorts of diseases and pests carried by the “returned goods.”

To our herpetological society’s adoption program (from which Rob’s facility has gotten some cool critters) an albino Burmese python is just - another Burmese python. Most “high end morphs” of the species we’re talking about face the same future.

-Joan

....all that I said.

Lowering my prices incredibly and "selling them cheap" are not the same thing at all. In addition, I would never sell my offspring to the Joe Blow that you describe below. You are putting all kinds of words into my mouth and I don't appreciate it one bit. When I describe being the biggest python breeder in the world I refer more to my ambitions of breeding and producing as many different species and morphs as I can,. not 200 thousand albino labyrinths per year. Somehow, somewhere, someway, you got me all wrong.

Furthermore, part of the return guarantee is that the animal must be 100% healthy, and besides I always practice STRINGENT quarantine measures at all times with all snakes that arrive. And in addition to that I intend to set up a separate facility altogether for these returned snakes as I do anticipate recieving a considerable percentage at some point. It's not like I throw new snakes in with well established snakes and hope for the best. It's not like I am 12 years old and have some silly unrealistic plan that is not well thought out Joan. I intend to do what is best for the snakes, and still somehow you find a way to ridicule me, judge me, falsely accuse me, and condemn me. Go figure. There are a LOT of ironies with this situation, and not the least of which is that everything I am doing and will do in my life is with the intention to eventually help to put a stop to the abuses and problems that these animals currently endure due to importation or being misplaced or sold to the wrong home. If you care about these same things then you are most certainly wasting your time in this futile attempt to discredit me as I am on the same side of the fence.

I don't know who you are, or who you think you are, but you really should not criticize a person without knowing them or what their priorities, cares and or concerns might be.

>>>> But once my overhead is behind me I am lowering my prices in an incredible way and virtually everyone will be able to afford one of the once hard to get high end morphs....
>>
>>Or put more plainly, your ultimate aim is to produce giant snakes and sell them cheap.
>>
>>Of course when a new morph costs thousands of dollars, THOSE animals aren’t the ones which are poorly treated. But clutches are large and prices fall rapidly. It’s when Joe Blow who’s never kept a snake in his life sees how inexpensively he can acquire a retic, burm or rock – those are the animals that end up on the scrap heap. It is either extremely naïve or extremely disingenuous for you to say you intend to be the largest breeder of giant snakes on the planet (this while spurning pet shop sales and selling only to the end user) AND that you will take back any and all animals your customers no longer want. At any rate, that guarantee would be a guarantee that you would be opening up your collection to all sorts of diseases and pests carried by the “returned goods.”
>>
>>To our herpetological society’s adoption program (from which Rob’s facility has gotten some cool critters) an albino Burmese python is just - another Burmese python. Most “high end morphs” of the species we’re talking about face the same future.
>>
>>-Joan
>>
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If 50% of one's enemies are still breathing,... it just means you're doing a half-assed job.

"Furthermore, part of the return guarantee is that the animal must be 100% healthy"

What do you plan on doing with the snakes that are NOT 100% healthy? Have you noticed that the snakes being surrendered to rescues are NOT 100% healthy? Maybe you will start a rescue for those ones?

I have been giving serious consideration to not just that, but perhaps starting numerous rescues for any unwanted animals, not just those that might come from me. But this would be a couple of years down the road so I didn't feel it was worth mentioning. I only like to refer to things that I either AM doing, or can do in the immediate future. Starting up rescues will take more funding than I currently have. But it is certainly in my mind. It really is the animals that I love, nothing else. And to know that there are animals out there suffering truly pains me and I intend to do something about it.

>>"Furthermore, part of the return guarantee is that the animal must be 100% healthy"
>>
>>What do you plan on doing with the snakes that are NOT 100% healthy? Have you noticed that the snakes being surrendered to rescues are NOT 100% healthy? Maybe you will start a rescue for those ones?
-----
If 50% of one's enemies are still breathing,... it just means you're doing a half-assed job.

>> But once my overhead is behind me I am lowering my prices in an incredible way and virtually everyone will be able to afford one of the once hard to get high end morphs....

Ever heard of protecting your investment?? People like you really irk me... We spend our hard earned cash to get into something big - only to have some fool undercut everyone's prices. Have you ever noticed how price trends work? As soon as someone offers an albino retic in the classifieds for $500, EVERYONE will be expected to sell theirs at that price too. It sucks, but it's reality.

You might be breeding snakes, but it doesn't make you SMART. Don't ruin this for everyone else.

O_S ,, That's Called Buisness.
Best Buy will beat anyone's prices by 10%.
Does that mean they shouldnt be selling electronics ?
Of course not. If your unable or unwilling to sell something at that price to keep your coustmers , then you'll lose'm. Plain and simple. Do you see Speedway and Exon selling there Gas at higher prices to help keep the little private owned gas stations in buisness ? Hell no ,, they sell it as cheep as they can (providing there still making a proffet) So they can get the Buisness. You cant even find a small private owned gas station anymore. I could give you so many examples of this , this post would go on forever. Your post was just argumentive and silly. Start fights somewhere else.
ehhh , besided , selling a $1,000 snake for $900 , realy isnt a market killer to me anyway.

>>>> But once my overhead is behind me I am lowering my prices in an incredible way and virtually everyone will be able to afford one of the once hard to get high end morphs....
>>
>>Ever heard of protecting your investment?? People like you really irk me... We spend our hard earned cash to get into something big - only to have some fool undercut everyone's prices. Have you ever noticed how price trends work? As soon as someone offers an albino retic in the classifieds for $500, EVERYONE will be expected to sell theirs at that price too. It sucks, but it's reality.
>>
>>You might be breeding snakes, but it doesn't make you SMART. Don't ruin this for everyone else.
-----
Seth Mason.
Do lesbian frogs think they taste like chicken too ?

Of course no one is going to spend $1,500 or more on a snake & then give it up. also it more then likely a breeder or devoted herper that is willing to pay these prices so they know what they're getting into. However once the marketability of the morph goes down ,price wise, then the non-prepared or just to get a snake 1st timers start buying them. Trust me I know several people w/ retics,rocks,burms, etc. that get them just b/c of the potential danger but have no real clue about the animals natural history,biology or anything like that. They just feed the snakes, sell or trade to other people who shouldn't have these snakes either. As for that one state thing, I know of several rescues in MD. & PA that can no longer accept burms.,retics,rocks, etc. b/c they are filled w/ them w/ no real outlet for their adoption. It is a sad truth as to why many states are banning or trying to ban the sale of large boaidea for the simple fact carless or unknowing innocents get them only to have them get to big & become no longer wanted or to aggressive. Go to you zoo's reptile house & ask them how many burms,retics.,rocks, annacondas,&even boas they were asked if they wanted b/c the current owner can no longer handle them then you'll see. Ironically I was given a labrynth burm. a few wks. back b/c it was to big at just 81/12ft. not counting a few other large pythons a few of my friends took in. I do think the breeding of these species should be minimalized as the general public is not prepared to house them. If the continue to be mass produced then more mishaps will happen. More mishaps happen more laws. More laws less herps for us get the picture if it doesn't stop soon we will have very few herps to enjoy in our homes w/o being criminals.

If you've bred snakes for 20 years, how come no one's heard of you? I've yet hear of a "Brian Smith" line Burm, Retic, Blood, or anything else you might have bred. In fact, you just appeared on Kingsnake less than a year ago as "Brian Smith".

It's a simple question, not an attack. I only ask, since you brought up statistics and numbers.

.

No Problem,.... I dropped out of the business in 1990, but still kept "pets". But I was not active in the retail aspects of breeding until just a couple years ago when I decided to invest in the morphs.

>>If you've bred snakes for 20 years, how come no one's heard of you? I've yet hear of a "Brian Smith" line Burm, Retic, Blood, or anything else you might have bred. In fact, you just appeared on Kingsnake less than a year ago as "Brian Smith".
>>
>>It's a simple question, not an attack. I only ask, since you brought up statistics and numbers.
-----
If 50% of one's enemies are still breathing,... it just means you're doing a half-assed job.

Brian, I am not out of line. I was voicing an opinion for which I strongly believe in. I in no way meant to offend anyone but rather put provide observations from over 20 years of being in the field professionally. We take in over 35 burms annually. THat doesn't include the many retics, rocks, anacondas, boas, gators, etc. that fall on our doorstep...the numbers more than quadruple. Being a professional, I have extensive networks set up with many other professionals who will echo my exact concerns. No, I cannot provide more than "in house" stats but there is no doubt in my mind that most burms will someday become abandoned....sad but true....thankfully, a good portion of these abandoned burms will find a good home but many will not. Brian, you have a 100% guarantee and that is great, but what happens when you "retire", pass on, etc.? What will happen to the 100's of burms you produce? Who will take them in that case? This just isn't a realistic selling point for the argument at hand. Most breeders (probably 99%) will not take an animal back unless they see it as somethng that will profit them. Brian, you make money selling burms and that is fantastic (I know what it is like to enjoy one's work) but lets be honest here, if fewer people bred burms, we would have fewer burms in the market place while still having PLENTY of burms to meet the demand. I will vehemently stick to what I feel is the truth. Brian, this isn't meant to be disrespectful to you. You have made some great contributions to this forum and our pool of knowledge. It is okay for forum folks like you and I to disagree on such matters; that is what keeps things interesting. But in the end, Brian, I do not feel that I am out of line.

Cheers, Rob

But you're missing a lot of important points here. A lot of people are. First of all, the reason,.. the FACT why you can't lay this on the breeder is because if the breeders did not produce the quality captive bred snakes for the pet trade market,. then the same numbers (or greater) would be imported. Prices would be even lower (fact),. the animals would be more diseased (fact), probably more aggressive,. probably more of a chance of a human death resulting from it eventually. The list of cons can go on and on with this scenario. Because of a constant demand for these animals there will always be suppliers for them (fact). So there seems little we can do about this aspect of it. But honestly Rob,.. wouldn't you rather they be captive produced animals, and not taken from the wild? If you can just concede that this is favorable I can move on to my next point.

There is no doubt in my mind that the pet shop industry is the main cause of placing the wrong animal into the wrong hands. I know a LOT of upstanding breeders that genuinely care about the snakes they produce and would not allow their offspring to go into the care of someone who is either incompetant or incapable or unrespecting. But I have yet to meet a pet shop owner that gives a hoot. Why? Because they have SERIOUS overhead and competition and they almost have to indiscriminately peddle their products in order to survive. I make no excuses for them,. I wish they didn't exist. They do a serious injustice to the animals they sell. Even before they are sold. They generally have appauling overcrowding, poor or inadequate living conditions, filthy and cold or lacking humidity, underfed and lying in their own filth and more often than not, parasite ridden. To them, they aren't living animals, they are PRODUCT. I don't go in to pet shops any more if I can ever help it because it depresses me so much. One guy in a local chain near me had several skinny burmese with shed retentions in a parrot cage in the rear corner of his dark and danky cold store. I told him how they should be kept, and he nodded at me, but I could tell by the look in his eyes that he wasn't listening and didn't give a hoot. But most breeders, Rob, most breeders keep their snakes warm and humid, well fed and healthy, and mite free (most do). Now which of these groups seems more likely to care where their snakes go? I think the answer is clear. I would wager that if you somehow traced the origins of your rescues that the VAST majority originated from pet shops.

And you ask me what happens after I die or retire? This almost implies to me, "why bother doing anything at all, it won't continue after you're dead". But I don't believe that. I believe that I will certainly influence hundreds if not thousands of other herpers in my time in a very positive way. Ripples in a pond, my friend,.. grow into tidal waves. Plus,. just so you know, my entire Will and last testiment is structured around the safty, security, future and well being of my animals. And of course for my wife too. But she is on the same page as me. I would not have married her if she did not share my passion and my love for the animals.

But other than that,.. the big picture,... I am not in this for personal wealth. And I am not in this to be the guy that is revered as creating some new morph (notoriety). I am in this with sincere goals to reach a point where I can actually make changes for the better. To help put a stop to mass importation. To help put a stop to abandoned animals... abused or neglected animals. Call it fighting fire with fire. I make money on this so as to have working capital to battle the injustices. I even have ideas of possibly starting up free schools where one can go to learn how to properly care for large reptiles. I hope it's not too unrealistic, because that is one that I really want to do. But the bottom line here Rob, is that I am in this for the animals' well being. And I personally know other people in the "business" with equally noble intentions (and you'd be surprised who I don't lump in with that catagory). I can't spell out exactly what my plans are here, or why I will be doing what I will be doing in the future, but I have good reasons and only good intentions for the animals themselves with everything that I do or will be doing. If you are curious about hearing about this email me privately and I will go into more detail.

>>Brian, I am not out of line. I was voicing an opinion for which I strongly believe in. I in no way meant to offend anyone but rather put provide observations from over 20 years of being in the field professionally. We take in over 35 burms annually. THat doesn't include the many retics, rocks, anacondas, boas, gators, etc. that fall on our doorstep...the numbers more than quadruple. Being a professional, I have extensive networks set up with many other professionals who will echo my exact concerns. No, I cannot provide more than "in house" stats but there is no doubt in my mind that most burms will someday become abandoned....sad but true....thankfully, a good portion of these abandoned burms will find a good home but many will not. Brian, you have a 100% guarantee and that is great, but what happens when you "retire", pass on, etc.? What will happen to the 100's of burms you produce? Who will take them in that case? This just isn't a realistic selling point for the argument at hand. Most breeders (probably 99%) will not take an animal back unless they see it as somethng that will profit them. Brian, you make money selling burms and that is fantastic (I know what it is like to enjoy one's work) but lets be honest here, if fewer people bred burms, we would have fewer burms in the market place while still having PLENTY of burms to meet the demand. I will vehemently stick to what I feel is the truth. Brian, this isn't meant to be disrespectful to you. You have made some great contributions to this forum and our pool of knowledge. It is okay for forum folks like you and I to disagree on such matters; that is what keeps things interesting. But in the end, Brian, I do not feel that I am out of line.
>>
>>Cheers, Rob
-----
If 50% of one's enemies are still breathing,... it just means you're doing a half-assed job.

How can you bash petshops like that after criticizing Rob for "generalizing" with regard to his statistics as you did in your first post in this thread. What do you base your petshop statistics on? I have a few petshops nearby that take great care of their reptiles. Does that mean from my standpoint that all petshops are great with reptiles? Of course not! Come on Brian. As usual you're being totally unrealistic. No one is questioning YOUR motives here, but you can't be so naive as to believe that all or even most breeders practice your enthuiasm to do what's best for the trade or the animals.

Does anybody here even know this guy?

>>How can you bash petshops like that after criticizing Rob for "generalizing" with regard to his statistics as you did in your first post in this thread. What do you base your petshop statistics on? I have a few petshops nearby that take great care of their reptiles. Does that mean from my standpoint that all petshops are great with reptiles? Of course not! Come on Brian. As usual you're being totally unrealistic. No one is questioning YOUR motives here, but you can't be so naive as to believe that all or even most breeders practice your enthuiasm to do what's best for the trade or the animals.
-----
If 50% of one's enemies are still breathing,... it just means you're doing a half-assed job.

Whether or not anyone knows me seems irrelevant to the questions posed in my post, but if you feel threatened by my post and don't want to address it, I totally understand. I was simply wondering if the petshops where you live are so terrible, do you really believe that it is an indication of what petshops everywhere are like as you so diligently state and why that stance is different than Robs stance on his statistics, which by the way I believe is quite accurate. Take care.

For you see,.. I won't address posts from those that only pop up when there is some form of argument as an excuse to further controversy, bickering or other forms of negativity. It's almost comical, but every time there is any form of an argument or disagreement such as this one, a whole myriad of "new screen names" (old troublemakers) pop up and take one side or the other with only the intention of stirring it up further and creating even more of a forum disturbance. None of you actually help any situation and it's clear that your only goal is to make it worse. This has got to be as transparent to others as it is to myself, and I seriously doubt if Rob is really so thrilled as to have the like of your ilk on his side. He actually makes a cognitive argument and bases it on something he firmly believes. I can respect that. But you,... and those like you,... are almost like ambulance chasers, feeding on the negativity and misery of others. And you think that by attempting to leech off of the credibility of another that this will somehow lend you credibility. Well it does not. You can't just pop up and agree with someone and feel that you have merit.

So you can flatter yourself and pretend as if you had me "threatened by your post" and backed into a corner and terrified to face the likes of a worthy opponent such as yourself,.. that's fine by me. I'll just be content in knowing that I don't respond to silly confrontational and inciteful posts because that is all that they are. You don't give a hoot about the real issue. You just want to argue. So argue away. Have fun and Rob and I and others that actually care about the real issues will figure out solutions to them.

I will not post to you again,. so soak this one up,. read it several times to get the full rewarding effect,.. and continue to post in vain.

Good day.

>>Whether or not anyone knows me seems irrelevant to the questions posed in my post, but if you feel threatened by my post and don't want to address it, I totally understand. I was simply wondering if the petshops where you live are so terrible, do you really believe that it is an indication of what petshops everywhere are like as you so diligently state and why that stance is different than Robs stance on his statistics, which by the way I believe is quite accurate. Take care.
-----
If 50% of one's enemies are still breathing,... it just means you're doing a half-assed job.

Sorry you feel that way. I thought it was a legitimate point. For the record, I don't need Rob's or anyone elses endorsement. I agreed with him because we share a common opinion on this issue. It's that simple. I'm so sorry that agreeing with Rob instead of you bothers you so much. No need to be so melodramatic.

Take the time to do a search on ALL of these forums and read some of the HORROR stories involving petstores. Type "Petco" into the search engine and see what type of posts come up. I actually have a good Petco near me that does treat their animals well but it is the ONLY petco that I've ever been pleased with. I have at least 5 or 6 of these stores within driving distance of my house (which I've visited all of them at one time or another) and they are all disgusting. I have another store called "Curious Creatures" near me and to say the least, it is truly disgusting. I made the mistake of buying my first ball python from them and ended up with mites in my collection and my wife picking ticks off of their "CB" ball python. Fortunately I've learned alot about snakes since then and know who and who not to purchase from. Heck, since I'm actually giving names here, I'll add one more to the list, possibly the worst of all reptile stores I've been to. They actually have a flashing add advertisement that pops up on the right side sometimes. The store is called "Regal Reptiles", I believe they are out of Providence, RI. My first time walking into this "reptile shop" I was appalled. The place was DISGUSTING and had lizards crawling all over the walls and ceiling. When I asked the owner, what's up with this he told me this is 'NORMAL' for lizard selling establishments. I immediately turned around and waited outside while my friends that I was with continued to look around. On top of it all, when they asked if they could take a look around at what they have for sale their answer was, "Nobody's allowed behind the counter". It gave me the feeling that their husbandry conditions for their animals 'behind the counter' couldn't be all that great if they need to hide it. Stories like this can go on and on, with very few 'good' stories to go with all the bad ones. BTW Scottish, any chance you also use the name Poosphere or Terdball? LOLOLOL Oh, I can see it now, another miserable post because I 'called him out!' Take care all, I've enjoyed this discussion, Scott Sullivan.
-----
Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.
Martin Luther King, Jr.

"In any civilized society, it is every citizen's responsibility to obey just laws.
But at the same time, it is every citizen's responsibility to disobey unjust laws."
—Martin Luther King Jr

"Called him out", lol. Actually, I totally agree that there are many filthy petshops out there. I also believe there are many good ones. I was simply trying to make a point. Brian's "overreaction" is probably just a defense mechanism he uses when he's too pissed off to admit he's wrong. I forgive him, lol. I actually purchased two boas(Suris) from Regal at a snake show before I heard the horror stories about them. Both of those boas died. My brother just came back from Florida and told me a horror story about a certain shop down there. I don't want to mention any names, but their initials are G.L.A.D.E.S H.E.R.P.S. I know, bad humor. In any case, he said it was completely different from when he went there years ago. The way he described it is much like your description of Regal.

You are right and I certainly don't want to down play the importance and great strides that folks like you (and I and many others) have done with captive breeding. There's no doubt that we wouldn't have the quality that we have today if it wasn't for captive breeding. But, I suppose, that there just seems to be a flooded market of BURMESE pythons....it is a much different ball game than say, olive pythons, carpet pythons, bloods, borneos, etc. That is really my biggest concern....just too many burms and not enough GOOD responsible homes for them (even if someone is willing to pay a big price). Yes, I am aware of the various market variables; if we stop breeding burms, we can and will import them, get inferior quality and bad tempers and on and on. I simplified the problem quite a bit in order to make my point but I realize that it is a VERY complex issue. It just frightens me a bit to see how many burms, retics, rocks, anacondas are produced on an annual basis when we barely have enough good homes for the ones that are abandoned. So, keep up your hard work and visionary ideas...I really do hope that they pan out and perhaps influence other breeders of giant snakes. That's the kind of out of the box thinking that could make positive changes.

Take care, Rob

Thanks Rob, I was just on the verge of posting a new topic to you simply suggesting that we bury the seemingly insignificant hachet, that we don't agree on the cause of the very problem that we both obviously care so very much about. It suddenly struck me as so very ironic that we could waste precious time and energy with *almost* irrelevant details when we are both on the same side with the same concerns. Besides which, I like and respect you greatly and something about it just felt very wrong deep inside.

I think I might be a little more optomistic about the issue with whether or not there are enough good homes for these snakes and future snakes yet to be born. It's a growing hobby and I see growing interest all the time. Genuine interest often bordering on obsession. I see new faces every week and my take on it is that every year there is a whole new "generation" of would be snake fanatics. I'll never forget when I was a boy in the mid 70's and I got my first burmese. I was too young, by most standards, and even my own standards now with what I know,.. but nobody knew it then and I got them as a result. I'll never forget the feeling that I had inside. I can't really describe it, but it was a feeling of pure knowledge that I just knew at that moment that I would be in this thing and have these animals for the rest of my life. When I voiced this the older people around me (adults) chuckled in a condescending and "knowing" way and informed me that I would grow out of my phase,. would get into girls and forget all about keeping these silly pets. I tried in vain to better explain how I KNEW that I would never outgrow it, but they knew more than me, you see, and they wouldn't have any of my babbling nonsense. Well years passed and indeed I did change and find that girls were very interesting, but I found a clever way to have two major interests, lol. To just do it. And I would never sacrifice the one for the other. To me my animals came first. Well, life went on and I finally realized it was best to look for girls with the same interests. After this life was purrfect. It was so simple and easy I suppose it was just automatic. Not that I would have ever compromised my animals for anything. They are my life and I love them and would do anything in their best interest. Heck, I have sold my home before to move to a better place JUST for the betterment of my animals before. And I would do it again in a heartbeat if I needed to.

The point to my long and boring story? That I honestly believe that each and every year there is a new group of teenagers reaching the age where they are old enough to raise a burmese (or other python) that would have the same love and dedication as I did/do. I believe this wholeheartedly. Even if they don't know it,. they are there. And it's my job, and other breeders' jobs to reach out and find them and cultivate and nurture future reptile lovers out of them. This is where the "good homes" are to be found. Homes that don't even exist yet. Herpers that aren't even herpers yet. The same as you inadverdantly do when you have a presentation at a local junior high school. Maybe one kid in the crowd of 30 might suddenly have something go off inside of him or her. They might see this and suddenly know what they want to do or what they want to have. The same goes with people that trickle through your wildlife/reptile center. So I am really glad that people like you are out there doing what you do. I'd have to say that those ripples become tsunamis in a very positive way. So there is hope in my book. And I intend to do everything in my power in my lifetime to make as many changes for the better wherever there are problems or suffering animals. And I feel that all of this will branch off geometrically too and that more people that share these concerns will do their parts too, and so on. So yes, I certainly feel there is hope and that any existing problems have only a limited time before they are solved by folks that care.

>>You are right and I certainly don't want to down play the importance and great strides that folks like you (and I and many others) have done with captive breeding. There's no doubt that we wouldn't have the quality that we have today if it wasn't for captive breeding. But, I suppose, that there just seems to be a flooded market of BURMESE pythons....it is a much different ball game than say, olive pythons, carpet pythons, bloods, borneos, etc. That is really my biggest concern....just too many burms and not enough GOOD responsible homes for them (even if someone is willing to pay a big price). Yes, I am aware of the various market variables; if we stop breeding burms, we can and will import them, get inferior quality and bad tempers and on and on. I simplified the problem quite a bit in order to make my point but I realize that it is a VERY complex issue. It just frightens me a bit to see how many burms, retics, rocks, anacondas are produced on an annual basis when we barely have enough good homes for the ones that are abandoned. So, keep up your hard work and visionary ideas...I really do hope that they pan out and perhaps influence other breeders of giant snakes. That's the kind of out of the box thinking that could make positive changes.
>>
>>Take care, Rob
-----
If 50% of one's enemies are still breathing,... it just means you're doing a half-assed job.

Just a genuine question to all breeders...

What happens to all those animals IT TAKES to come up with that specificly desired colored morph? The pieces of the puzzle, the "steps" of the process. The ones that don't come out as that "designer color" of the month?

As I've said before, when someone comes up with the "polka-dot", personalized name or "disco" morph, it's all over!

Thanks,
Michael N. Schroeder

I couldn't agree more! It's nice to see people looking at the situation realistically. Some people are so caught up in the naive world of "me-dom" that they completely miss the point.

Here in Florida there are breeding colonies of Burmese in the
Everglades. If there is a single attack on a child or tourist
you know the uptight, anti-reptile contingent is going to go
all-out to ban large constrictors as pets. (With reason).

Thanks,
tc

I just would like to tell a little story that I find appropriate seeing how my question of avalibility turned into a conversation about neglect. It is true that burms do seem to be too big for most common people to deal with, regaurdless on this forum I wouldn't consider anyone a common person. We are here because of our love for these animals, in my oppion even with the extra unloved burmese pythons in the world most of the people on this forum do take great care of there animals. Anyway back to the story, two weeks ago I was contacted about a rouge alligator that was terrorizing a small community a few hrs away from me. Aparently the owner who kept him outside was neglectful in there pond design and the animal recked havok on the neighbors as they were sun bathing in there back yard. Animal control quickly caught the animal, and has been keeping untill sombody can legaly take it off there hands. I made the drive with a friend to see the gator, wich is not a real common sight in Washington state. It was a very sad event for a reptile lover to see but even worse for a common animal loving person. The building that was being used to house the gator was also the building that is used to euthanise dogs and cats and I was are unfortunet enough to be there only min after they put them down. What I saw was horrible, there were 20 small cages holding 100's of cats some dead some dying and all cramed in together on top of each other. I can still remember the faint crying of the animals. Now the Tri-Citys are not a huge metropolis but if they have the need to euthanise 1000's of unwanted cats alone yearly, I can only imagine what a large city would. The gator was being kept poorly also only because they have no clue how to handle a animal like that. Feeding it chicken parts, but not giving it any heat source, it was being kept in a dog kennel, wih a half dog house full of water to swim in.... Where Im getting at is this city wich has had rougly 5-6 pythons in the last 10 years and one gator still puts down 1000's of cats and dogs yearly. All of the reptiles that came in have been wanted, and adopted save this poor aligator I am still working on with hopes to send him southward where he can have a more normal life to look forward too. So try not to be too hard on the breeders or the good owners, and be thankful that burms are not cats.... But if anybody out there could help me I would still love to have a normal Lab???

-Thanks Shaun D