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This breeder told me a new line of pure eastern was found in N carolina and bred to the older line of amel eatsern from where it intergrades with niger.

Anyone else heard of a new albino eastern being found in the Carolinas?

..and you should see the pics of this snakes siblings. Will post after comments from eastern king guys on the Carolina eastern being found.

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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

hey there. its howie. this is the first i heard of a new albino eastern king being found in north carolina. any more specific information and possible pics/descriptive of the animal in question? potentially exciting find!!

Hey Howie,

I don't beleive the story. Thats why I posted it here. Don't get to excited unless someone can confirm it.

Unfortunatly there are unscruplous breeders that will tell you anything for a buck. Especially uinsuspecting people. Thats how false lines get started.

Here are some other pics of siblings. These more "colorful" ones were $600.ea

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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

.
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Hahaha, my response exactly. Kinda like those amel goini you see from Texas. Ken

We all have our suspicions, but know this. This year Patternless and Striped Amel Goini came from my friends line. At least that snake had a history which I posted here. I believe it started with the grandparents if not great grandparents.

That project went back to the guy who caught the founding stock, and yes he was stubborn and would not share every detail. Maybe he will now that he will be producing them...and I would guess he will be selling the offpsring. I did what I could for that snake, and it did nothing but give me headaches,

I also had the pleasure of getting slugs last year and this year, so I am not going to waste too much time discussing this. However the ones from Texas are MILES apart from the others out there and if you saw them I think you'd agree
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Screw all the Locale Stuff!

Those look pretty Damn cool!

They are probably Goini X Amel Eastern!

~Z
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Royal ReptileZ

Hi Rainer!....

I'm with ya all the way on that!!, as that is EXACTLY what we talked about in some detail at the show.I looked at those same animals, as well as adult breeder trios and have trouble believing there are PURE albino easterns around with absolutely no influence from anything else in their lineage.

By the way, here's a pic of the male brooksi I got from you just after he shed!!(please excuse the substrate in water). It was a spur of the moment pic I took,...I'll take some much nicer ones later. Thanks again for the pair!

~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Those look like they are Jurassic.
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Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
www.mesozoicreptiles.com

cool snake,id be a lil stumped if i was breeding easterns and that popped out LOL
but i think i know what to breed my alb hondos to next year,to the alb blotched whatever

What's the commotion.
Those are tooooootally pure eastern kings.
Just look at those patterns.
Come on now.
:]
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.kingpinreptiles.com
^ Updated 8/27

>>Anyone else heard of a new albino eastern being found in the Carolinas?

There was a guy named Paul (his last name escapes me right now) that was in possession of an albino NC chain king. Its been a few years though, and I'm not sure if any breeding efforts were attempted or even what became of the specimen. It would have been unrelated to the intergrade-cross NERD/Chiang lines that are common in the hobby. Ken

This is the first I have heaard of an amel eastern chain being found in NC. And I live in NC. I have a few friends around here as well, and I would like to think we would have heard about it as well. Not to say it hasn't, just that we havn't heard about it. Here is my male:

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SShane@
SSuperiorSSerpents
http://s63.photobucket.com/albums/h127/SSuperiorSSerpents/

was the snake not posted on the internet as soon as it was found? There is nothing to loose and everything to gain from sharing information like this with the rest of the world. I remember when I found the golden corn I posted it almost immediately as it is normal for most of us to be excited with such a rare find.
I find it suspiscious that someone would not post a snake like that as soon as it was found - (Why the (supposed) secrecy???)
I live in NC, breed E. kings, and heard nothing about an amel eastern king being found here in the last few years.... ? ? ?
Hmmmmmmm.......? ? ?

Zee

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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Yes!!,...I agree 100%!! my point exactly(along with others).

By the way, I saw you're exceptional "golden" corn at the expo the other day!....wow!, I was the tall guy with the mustache that was telling you that I would do cartwheels like you if I was lucky enough to stumble on to a beauty like that!!
If I'm not mistaking, I think you said your son actually caught that!.......correct?

In any case, it's nothing short of spectacular in my opinion!

Hope you put it to good use, and it passes on the cool trait!!
good luck!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Thanks.
It was great meeting you. (As a matter of fact it was great meeting A LOT of folks in Daytona & seeing some again for the second or tird time). It's always good to put a face with a name!
No, my son was with me when we found that snake. You could actually say WE found the snake together (since we sat in the car together) I merely picked it up off the pavement (knowing that my son was a little skittish about picking up wild snakes at that time) and I was bitten about three times. But after closer examination of the animal, the bite marks & pain suddenly disappeared if you know what I mean, lol!
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Well - if I found something like an amel zonata, I would not make it public because it isn't hard to find out where I live.

I would though make sure some of the gurus knew about it, but at a request that it not be made public until breeding had been done.

I can understand why secrecy would be wanted.

However - if I ever found any kind of neat morph with profit potential, I would do my best to preserve locality - let those who bought offspring mix locality.
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11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.1 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus nasicus (W Hognose)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

YOU DO bring up a good point & I expected to see a thief soon. (A fellow herper that breeds Eastern Indigos, only seventy miles from here, had all of his babies stolen when some older teenagers broke in his building and took them so they could get money for drugs. The teens were finally caught a few months later. This was a good wake-up call for me and made me take precautions of my own:

1. I currently have the BEST alarm system money can buy (motion detectors, cameras, dogs). (I've had thieves in the past to steal bicycles and other items, but no snakes were taken, thank God!)
2. Someone is ALWAYS home!
3. I have a pair of live animals ('05 hets) at a relatives' house, in case I lose all of my collection due to a catastrophe such as a fire or major power outage).
4. The fact that the animal IS UNIQUE, and I had plenty of pics of it. There are plenty of people that could testify to the fact that this IS my animal if it ever got stolen. Think about it: If someone were to steal this animal, then I could EASILY identify it, if he EVER showed it to ANYONE. Of course the thief could hide and then breed her, and sell the offspring. But then I could get access to an offspring from the thief or whoever bought one, and run a DNA test on it to see if it matches with the one I have (the two hets)! With that, plus old pics, and all the folks on here knowing that I posted this animal as early as Sep '04, I can prove that the founder animal and offspring can be traced back to me!
And fortunately for me I have bred her three times now...

But you have a good point, and maybe this person couldn't afford to, or have the resources to protect his/her animal???
Or maybe felt that it was best to hide it from everyone?
BUT:
IMHO, I DO think that a golden corn is a rarer find than an albino eastern kingsnake. I would have at least shared ANY rare find with a few people to ensure that once I produced offspring, you would know it was legit'
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

As many here know, my whole collection was stolen by someone who continues to frequent this forum under false names. Included were all kinds of unique colubrid morphs(alb chains/blaze goini/anery NM milks/HYPO coastal plains/anery monster island milks--all when they were BIG $$), and I found out about it by FINDING some of my snakes on a vendors table in Daytona!! Well, I had reciepts,pics, and evidence linking him to the crime.....but there was a major component missing---A sympathetic DA. The Virginia Beach DA and police force would not prosecute because they "were only snakes". Dont underestimate the state of discrimination in your community no matter the present laws or dollar value. I lost about $25K in animals and immediate lost revenue and was told there was nothing that could be done in criminal court--that I could take it to civil court. YES, it really happened. Hope this thread doesnt get pulled by simply referring to the incident. Jeff

Did they break into your house and steal it all?? Did you know them too?
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Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at Cmabrigde Uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are at the rghit pclae. The rset can be a total mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe.
www.mesozoicreptiles.com

Its because I knew him that the cops couldnt be bothered. He is now in California under a different name, but I know his new name and he cant run from me forever.....J

Yes, I DO remember THAT incident! That WAS SO wrong...!!!!!!!
Shoot me an e-mail with a discription/name/photo if you have any (carstenzoldy at yawho doht kom). California is my home of record and most of my family still lives there!
What state do you currently live in?
Thanks.
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"I am an expert on everything, but I know so little and have so much to learn!" -Carsten "Zee" Zoldy-

Although we've never met, we have a lot of the same mutual friends and I just want to say you have been AMAZINGLY patient over all that.

"J" sold me a pr of cholorechis like eight years ago for DIRT cheap and it was then that I began to suspect he had an issue with (sniff) you know what.

Of course I pray for that guy all the time. Believe it or not, he was a great guy when he was hanging out and hunting the sandhills w us.

Chris

Well just my opinion but I think the Tennessee amel Eastern possibly originated with the amel niger that Lemke had. They predate the amel eastern by several years. On top of that I seem to hear that it was an intergrade in the first place which could be seen as kinda backing out of saying pure eastern without really admitting crossing with niger was done.
Anyway it seems pretty well established that the Tenn. amel eastern was an intergrade, be it natural or manmade. That being the case what would be the benifit of crossing a new pure Carolina eastern with the original Tenn. line? I mean if your gonna do that you could have gotten the same results just crossing normal Carolina easterns into the Tenn. line. I am speaking strictly from the perspective of a purist. If the Carolina line is real and it has a different look that the Tenn. line it's perfectly reasonable to cross the lines out of intrest in appearances alone.

From what I understand, that is EXACTLY what the true "lowdown" is on the "so-called" PURE albino eastern king. I've had a problem believing there ever was an actual pure albino eastern for many many years.
The Lemke story is exactly what I've heard AGAIN from a very reliable source just recently. All the pieces of the puzzle always seem to keep comming together on this matter perfectly, no matter how many years or decades go by.

With that said, many others will always disagree no matter what!
Don't get me wrong, it's as close as they come to being the real deal, but since they have genetic influence from elsewhere,
even distantly so, they can't be called a pure strain. Of course I'm a purist when it comes to snakes basically, so what matters to me, and what matters to others are two totally different things......Since that's all that is available, that is what the vast majority of people accept as the "albino Eastern King",....simple as that.

In any case, they are what they are for what it's worth.

best regards,........ ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I attend a herp class/club at UAB birmingham every month. There is a man that attends there who's first name is Carl. He use to work at the Atlanta zoo and he claims that while he was there someone brought a small white snake with yellow bands to them that was cought just outside of Atlanta. The people didn't want the snake they just wanted it identified. The zoo identified it as an eastern then it was either sold or given to an individual with the purpose of producing and selling them. He did also say he accidently stepped on it right before it was turned over to the person interested in it so there is a chance it didn't live or never was able to reproduce. I don't know how much truth there is to it but rumor has it Bob Applegate is the one that obtainted it from the Atlanta Zoo. Besides it would only take four to five generations for a natural intergrade that was to get this recessive gene from a seperate subspecies to produce over a 90% pure itself. Of which if found in the wild would be considered 100% pure with nobody none the wiser.

wow these stories sure have a way of going full circle.

Actually it was an eatsern king found at a pet shop.

Horridus can give the details better than I since he was there.

Horridus, can you please give us the details..
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Here is the email I got from Kevin at NERD concerning the amel eastern from Tennessee:

They are 100% the real deal...the ones from me....

the original came from Tennesee..Chatanooga in fact collected off of a river bank!

kev

_________________________________________________
Check out NERD's Cold Blooded Forums!
http://www.newenglandreptile.com/forums - see you there!!!

On Oct 13, 2006, at 9:02 PM, shane johnson wrote:

Hello, my name is Shane. I am trying to track down the history of one of my animals. Its my male albino king. I keep coming across N.E.R.D. but the trail stops there. Some people tell me there is no way to trace its line. Its been years, from what I can tell, that you worked with these animals. Any help, or direction you can send me in, is greatly appreciated. Thank you for your time.

Shane Johnson @
SSuperiorSSerpents

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SShane@
SSuperiorSSerpents
http://s63.photobucket.com/albums/h127/SSuperiorSSerpents/

I think we need to face facts - the king snake has become the first "white mouse" of the herp industry. None of us have any reason to believe we are actually buying a "florida king" or a "cal king" or any other species - sub-species when we're dealing with color morphs - and in many cases, even when we are dealing with regular morphs.

They have all been so cross bred that we are really just buying "pretty snakes". Thats OK as long as we all know it, but we should stop pretending we have any real subspecies when we're dealing with color morphs, especially.

The eastern king here has likely been crossed with various sub-species, maybe corn snakes and who knows, maybe a Pit thrown in for good measure.

Again - I don't care, just let buyers beware...

Joe

Bluerosy,

Those are offspring from an amel eastern (reputed to have been WC in NC) bred to one of the amel "goini" From the "pair under the board together" line. That's the reason for the strange patterns on the siblings. The guy's name is Zelph....what did you think if his hair? My friend calls it the "mane of disenchantment". He seems like a good guy, I don't think he's deliberatly trying to mislead anyone....

I wish another amel eastern would pop up around here. I saw one some guy found on a road about 15 miles from here and sold to local petshop. For what it's worth it didn't look anything like the ones from the intergrade line. It looked much more like a Lavender Florida without the speckling. It had that tannish white background with lemon yellow chains...beautiful snake. Shame that line was never established.

Another thing to consider is that as far as we have come with the internet, alot of snake people are inherently secretive. I have found out about several WC mutations over the years that have been found and even established by very private keepers.....they didn't make the discoveries public for thier own personal reasons....sometimes they didn't want the constant questions and offers...Or, some people out there don't care about the commercial side of keeping snakes so they keep and breed the animals for thier own enjoyment, when and if they make it into the hands of someone who does release them to the public, the story can sound "fishy" or incomplete because the founder doesn't want the locality known or in some cases doesn't want people knowing it was they that found the snake. So don't discount something just because all the information isn't there. Of course, It can happen either way, we all know there's been mutations that were crossed into other species and bred back to make a "pure" albino or hypo example of a related species... sometimes publicly (like with alterna) sometimes with the intent of making people believe a "new" snake was found....I used to be much more skeptical of "new" animals popping up in the wild but after having seen the number of venomous examples in the past 10 years, it has made it more believeable to me. It shouldn't be any more unlikely that several examples of kings and milks could be found. ESPECIALLY with the numbers of people out in the field as compared to 10-15 years ago......just my thoughts on the subject, sorry to be long winded (as usual) LOL

but he said they were pure easterns. So they are from the amle goni crossed to the nigerxeasterns strian and the two turned out allelic, correct?
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

That's what those orange abberant things are. I guess I could have misunderstood him about the more eastern looking baby. But the really bright orange ones were from an amel eastern to a female albino goini from the lineage everyone questions. And yeah proving them to be the same form of T- amelanism. All this was over a dinner so I am reserving the right to have misheard him...but I am fairly certain about the two abberant orange snakes you posted, because I looked at them the next day and he pointed out those two as the ones he mentioned the night before.

I'll call him tonight to verify the lineage.

I'll call him tonight to verify the lineage.

Please do because he stated to me the other snake was a new albino caught in NC. I told him I did not hear of another amel eastern being caught so we had a discussion about this. He referrred to to his partner (who was not there) to verify the amel eastern from NC.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Ridgeways??
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

This is a reenactment. Actors were used. The names have been changed to protect the innocent.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

...my partner Bill and I were staked out...it was nightime in the city of Angels...this town never sleeps...
Not the thugs... not the restless and not me... I wear a badge....
:Sgt. Joe Friday
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/