Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a young (late '06) male sunglow. He has been great.....until recently. He is turning his head sideways. It looks like as if he had a stroke. He now keeps his head sideways when moving and seems "spastic". He is still eating and can "right" himself if turned upside down. He seems alert but is having trouble guiding himself around due to his head not being straight. IBD ? Crypto? Doesn't look like either. I've tried to read and find out whats going on with this...but have not been able to.

I just noticed that a baby albino burm is just starting to act the same way......I know I have a serious problem....Can anyone identify this for me??? Has anyone else had this before?

I will be bringing them to a local vet. But they don't really deal with snakes that often. I do not want these animals to suffer....but I do not want anymore animals to get infected. Yes....they are isolated now and I am using extreme caution when cleaning, feeding, etc.

You need to take them both to a Herp Vet. Here's a link that might help.

http://www.herpvetconnection.com/

Not enough info to be conclusive about IBD. What you are describing could be from a whack on the head while striking, perhaps injured while coiling and hitting something just right.

I can say that if it is IBD and both are infected, the python will show a much more rapid onset of outward symptoms, probably neuro in nature. ie stargazing, or twisted corkscrew movement. Boa can remain Asymptomatic for a long time, or show mild symptoms for a long time.

If you suspect it, you will need some biopsy tests done in order to test for it. It's not gonna be cheap if they do it right. But it will take a qualified herp vet. Samples should be taken from several internal organs for more accurate results.
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

Have you used any chemicals around them lately or ever?
If you hold the boa by the end of the tail and let it hang free
will it right itself and attempt to climb straight up its self ?
Did you acquire this animal at a Herp Show ? have you contacted the breeder ?
Animals can be born with neurological issues and they can have those issues induced by trauma as well as chemical poisoning and contagious/infectious disease exposure,but that python thing kinda puts into a much more confined context.
Sadly neurological issues are not reversible(they dont heal and get better)its a permanent and fatal condition.
Their known as "spinners"
If it is IBD the python will deteriorate very quickly

My Condolences,(hope Im wrong though)

TnK

So, what's this permanent and fatal Neurological Disorder??

I've never heard of "spinners".

Can you elaborate??

Trade reference to animals "with neurological disorders"

TnK

>>So, what's this permanent and fatal Neurological Disorder??
>>
>>I've never heard of "spinners".
>>
>>Can you elaborate??

Their called "spinners" and most advise to cull.

TnK

Does "cull" mean "kill"?

Trade reference?? What trade??

Is this a common reference?

I've never heard it before.

Is it fatal because the animal will evenutally die from it or...

Is it fatal, because they're "culled"?

>>Trade reference?? What trade??
Snake trade
Spinner is a trade "slang" reference for snakes with neuro issues.(one that twists and flops,off angle head positions etc)

>>Is this a common reference?

Depends on who you talk with,is it common reference on forum boards NO!probably why you haven't heard it.
There is a Big Snake World outside of KS,RTB,FC etc

Really there is

>>I've never heard it before.

I'm Sorry,many forum people haven't.

>>Is it fatal because the animal will eventually die from it or...
>>
"No Neurological issues are fatal" and the animals eventualy die from it.Spinner is not a disease !!

>>Is it fatal, because they're "culled"?

No their culled because its fatal.

TnK

OK, for this to be a "trade reference" then it would have to be a "common occurrence". At the very least, it would have to be common enough to have a "trade reference" for it. After all, if it was a "once in a blue moon" thing. Well, it just wouldn't have a trade reference name.

Are you saying that "spinners" are a "common occurrence" in the Great Big Snake World??

BTW what breeders use this term?

Your really trying to make a bigger deal of this then need be.
Take it for what it is and someday it may accure to you,you learned something new on 8/26/07

Regards,

TnK
>>OK, for this to be a "trade reference" then it would have to be a "common occurrence". At the very least, it would have to be common enough to have a "trade reference" for it. After all, if it was a "once in a blue moon" thing. Well, it just wouldn't have a trade reference name.
>>
>>Are you saying that "spinners" are a "common occurrence" in the Great Big Snake World??
>>
>>BTW what breeders use this term?
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

N/P

an opening on his debate team-NOT
Bob

Assumptive Ignorance from Novice Forum Groupies Fixes what ?

TnK

In response to post,
I've had a boa, I bought her as a yearling to 1 1/2 yrs old and have had her almost two years or perhaps more, I lose count... at any rate, she has always been special. She eats like a cow, keeps it down always, can right herself and moves fine... all appearances of a healthy boa... but she's always had her head on angle, she sometimes is a bit awkward, but always gets around. She's always been separate from others and allowed to do her own thing, but this wouldn't be considered a spinner would it? She hasn't changed in the time I've had her at all, no worse, no better, I figured it to be nerve damage.
Opinions? Thanks!
Stephanie Siebert

In slang context yes,but the whole thing is primarily extended towards animals with varying degrees and or exaggerated uncontrollable,abnormal body movements(motor skills)
Pop a fresh crate of imports that got over heated in transit and you'll have "spinners" have a temp spike from a low budget heat controller and your neo/subs flip out you find it twisted in a knot its probably gonna be a "spinner".
Use a product like Frontline* for mite eradication and one day you find it all twisted and acting goofy,if it survives ? you got it "Spinner"

This isn't intended to freak people out,its a real side of the animal trade when dealing with boids.
Ive experienced it and suffered the loss`s,I had to learn at a
cost.

Best of Luck with your animal ma'am

TnK

>>In response to post,
>> I've had a boa, I bought her as a yearling to 1 1/2 yrs old and have had her almost two years or perhaps more, I lose count... at any rate, she has always been special. She eats like a cow, keeps it down always, can right herself and moves fine... all appearances of a healthy boa... but she's always had her head on angle, she sometimes is a bit awkward, but always gets around. She's always been separate from others and allowed to do her own thing, but this wouldn't be considered a spinner would it? She hasn't changed in the time I've had her at all, no worse, no better, I figured it to be nerve damage.
>>Opinions? Thanks!
>>Stephanie Siebert

You have some expensive boas. Although even a more common boa also deserves the BEST.

What you need to do is......

Find a qualified Reptile Vet. Take them both in. Have tests done to determine what's wrong. If you feel you can trust the Vet, then go with what the "Vet" thinks is best.

You're really not going to get "definate" answers on the forum, as far as a diagnosis goes.

Nobody knows exactly what's wrong with your snake. At best, they can only "guess".

I realize that's it's most likely going to be expensive, but you need to do what's best for your snakes.

If you've recently purchased these snakes, you need to contact the breeder or where ever you got them from and, "let them know what's going on".

If you've had them for a while, then make notes of anything they may have come into contact with. Double check the temps in the cages too. There's "MANY" things that can cause the problems you're seeing.

BTW even a dog/cat vet can do a phone consultation with a quailified Reptile Vet. So, be sure to ask your Vet if this is something he will do if you don't have a Reptile Vet that's available.

Good Luck,
Please come back and give us an update when you know more.

Since both the boa and python are "Albino"....

You might want the vet to check their vision. A snake that's blind,partially blind, or even have some sort of vision impairment will exibit the symptoms you've mentioned. If that's the problem it could save you lots of money on tests.

Blindness ain't gonna cause neurological symptoms. May cause clumsiness, bumping into things, but not corkscrewing.

Things to consider would be IBD, spinal/head injury, overheating or poison. But not blindness IMO.

My 2¢
Rick
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

Actually it will. A boa that's blind can and will do a cork screw movement.

I do volunteer work at a local Vet that is Certified in Reptiles and other Exotics. We have a client with an Albino boa that's "blind". It shows symptoms of neurological disfunction, including "cork screw movements". The only thing wrong with this animal is that it's "blind". It's been this way for many years.

If you close your eyes does it make you fall down? Nope, a little thing called equilibrium comes into play don't it.
How come all these Boa born with mutated or missing eyes seem to have perfectly normal motor skills? Because sight has little to do with the messages sent by the inner ear.

4 years ago I rescued a Boa, a rat attack victim who is now in a happy home in Las Cruces NM. Had most of his head eaten, one eye completely gone, the other is scarred. A full year of recovery it took. Other than needing a little help finding the food at times, this Boa motors and acts just fine.

A guy just posted a BCo in another forum that's obviously blind, (who knows why) and it motors just fine. Seen too many examples to believe that with any certainty.

The human mind, a lot like a parachute, works much better when open.
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

Alot has to do with where its packed

TnK

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>>The human mind, a lot like a parachute, works much better when open.
>>

>>Alot has to do with where its packed
>>
>>TnK
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>>
>>>>
>>>>The human mind, a lot like a parachute, works much better when open.
>>>>

I pack my own thanks! One of the many useful skills I picked up in the ARMY.
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

Apparently you're thinking this snake does a small corkscrew movement on the floor of the cage. This snake will slither normally outside the cage with it head tilted slightly. When in an enclosure it will follow the wall of the cage up to the ceiling, of the cage, and across the ceiling a bit and down making a large circle. It then rights it self immediately. The owners of the snake also told us that most of the time it lays coiled or against the wall of the cage, just like any other boa would. The only thing wrong with this boa is that it's blind. It's been blind for 8 years and it eats, sheds, deficates, and anything else a healthy boa would do.

We were only able to observe this boa for about 30 minutes, in a cage, to see this corkscrew movement it does.

So apparently you have a very different idea of what a "corkscrew" movement is.

Exatly what do you consider a "corkscrew" movement in a snake?

>>So apparently you have a very different idea of what a "corkscrew" movement is.
>>
>>Exatly what do you consider a "corkscrew" movement in a snake?
>>
>>

Yup, apparently we do. I would call what you just described as "listing" to the side. A corkscrewing movement is just like it sounds. Head goes forward in a "twisting" type of manner, at times completely inverting it's head, or even further.

Are we talking about the same snake? The Sunglow from the OP? I know I have been. Just curious.
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

No he's on some triad about a O/T boa he allegedly observed for 30 min or something to that effect .....?
His chute never opened . . .
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TnK

>>>>So apparently you have a very different idea of what a "corkscrew" movement is.
>>>>
>>>>Exactly what do you consider a "corkscrew" movement in a snake?
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>>Yup, apparently we do. I would call what you just described as "listing" to the side. A corkscrewing movement is just like it sounds. Head goes forward in a "twisting" type of manner, at times completely inverting it's head, or even further.
>>
>>Are we talking about the same snake? The Sunglow from the OP? I know I have been. Just curious.
>>-----
>>Richard Carew
>>Sunset BCI
>>You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
>>Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices

No, I'm not referring to the Sunglow from the OP.

I'm talking about a 10 year old Albino Boa that was diagnosed as being blind 8 years ago.

>>No, I'm not referring to the Sunglow from the OP.
>>
>>I'm talking about a 10 year old Albino Boa that was diagnosed as being blind 8 years ago.
>>
>>

Ah, that explains it. Now I'm not so confused.

How about you? Does this albino list, or corkscrew? oke:
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
You laugh at me cuz I'm different! I laugh at you cuz you're all the same.
Stop Inhumane and Illegal Practices