Reptile & Amphibian Forums

There seems to be some discrepencies in locality being discussed on this forum. I believe localities are just what they are one place and not another. Comstock, Sanderson, Gap, alpine 6 mile south, Alpine west, 118 20miles south of alpine, river road, Christmas. These are all localities that alterna come from if they do not come from a that area you can not call the snake from that locality. I think if you catch an alterna away from these areas you should designate the animals locality at what distance from the nearest locality or nearest town or road. But why would you want to designate the animal from another local and introduce genes into a breeding program that should not belong there, if the breeder is breeding for local. I find this to be very offending. Some of us put lots of time into hunting a small area to find the stock we need from that specific local. What do you guys think about distance from a local were an snake can still be described as from that local? Some areas are larger and some are smaller so how does that effect localities?

Matt Ilseng

it depends on how late it is in the night when you finally find the male for your "furthest south, s-curve (juno), female" if it was 4 in the morning and I found a male just north of bakers, it would have been a local pairing, even though it is 5-6 miles away. but i have not found the male yet, so we will see next year where he shows up.
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South Texas Herps

I think that you GBK guys are the lucky ones. At least within your small community a large portion of people care about locality data. I don't have any alterna (yet...thats gonna change this year), and I have never been to texas, but I do breed many other locality animals. Finding pure locality animals is like pulling teeth. Often the closest thing you can get is a county, or sometimes even a state. Its pretty sad that most people have no idea where their herps come from, and how unique each subpopulation can be.

In my mind locality pairings should be within a reasonable distance that a snake could travel over its lifetime. If we say a snake could maybe travel 3 miles in its life (I know many would never leave the rock pile they were born in... but some do) and it takes two to tango, I would say about 6 miles is as far away as I would consider a locality pair, that maybe could have actually exchanged genes in the wild. (for GBKs only, other snake species wander much farther)

But you also have to use your head. If their is a boundry that divides a population, like a large river for example, then a few meters might make up an entirely different population.

Just my .02

I think, like all other snakes, Alterna crawl around. So if you can pair up an Alterna with 3-5 miles of another then you are safe in my book. Now, 20 miles away.. Well that is another story.

It may just be early but can you please clarify what you disagree with in relation to Locality Snakes?

Thanks,

SXO792

I have only a disagreement with snakes from two different locals being pronounced from the same local. My interest was only in trying to see what the majority feels at what distance a snake should not be considered from a local. Some Locals even have sublocals EG. The Christmas- North Hill, South Hill. I am for Local breeding and keeping a blood line true. But I have no problem with persons breeding for certain traits, I just believe that if a snake has mixed local breeding of any kind is should be labeled with the not so nice name of Generic and not passed on as a pure local animal. Being able to say with 100% accuracy that your animals are from one local is very important in Alterna breeding and most of us know this.

Matt Ilseng

>>I think, like all other snakes, Alterna crawl around. So if you can pair up an Alterna >>with 3-5 miles of another then you are safe in my book. Now, 20 miles away.. Well >>that is another story.

I've often wondered about this stuff when reading this forum. I like keeping locality info, that way no matter what happens with species/subspecies names you always know where your animals came from. But, all new animals that have generations that overlap with the parents migrate. So, if no one minds a 5 mile difference (say one generation) why not a 20 mile which would be done in 4 generations. Genes flow across the entire range otherwise each locality would be a unique species (of subspecies). Just curious where the disinctions are.

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Genetic exchange can take place over greater distances over several generations, that is true... But that exchange is also slow and may not be true in the sense that two specific animals could have come in some direct contact within a normal lifetime.

Bottom line is that as a breeder that chooses to focus on locality bloodlines you have to draw the line somewhere, and the closer you can get founding animals together the better in my opinion.

that the animals are represented for exactly what they are. Some folks have a stricter interpretation of locality matched and that's fine.

the problems arise after the animals are sold and the guy that bought them either didn't pay attention or got confused then just calls them what ever he thinks or remembers.

As far as gene flow goes for the most part those alterna aren't moving too far, but rogue males are well documented in other species and do exist in alterna. Some of these snakes are on the move from the day they hatch till the day they die. It's hard to say exactly how far they could go in a lifetime but I would think 8-10 miles isn't out of the question.

There have been some pretty cool studies done on Rattlesnake movements and some of these snakes regularly travel several miles and have sophisticated sense of direction finding their way back and forth from distant landmarks seasonally.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

that is the ticket...

OK, then. Here's an example: River Road.
River road is many miles long. Also, all the way up to Study Butte is technically considered river road.
The river road is a locality, albeit a much larger one than, say, Big Hill.
Even Black Gap is over 20 miles long, and Langtry, Sanderson, etc., can be said to extend 15 miles or more in any direction.
I guess in these new times, GPS co-ordinates wil be given to "verify" locales.
-Jack
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V.P.
Austin Herp. Soc.

River is very long, however it is broken into Sub-Locals.

Windmill, Mud Flats, Panther, Big Hill, Grassy Banks, West Lajitas, East Lajitas, Peppers Hill.

And in some instances, the animals really do have some different traits than others. I think Lajitas animals look a bit different from those west of the Bill Hill or Panther.

Just my opinion. Lance has way more experience on the RR and has found more animals than most on that road.

Later,

Steven

>>Just my opinion. Lance has way more experience on the RR and has found more animals than most on that road.

that's for sure! Sorry Wayne, blame Steve O for the perfect setup.
If you wanna get even I've the big goose egg over on the Gap
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Oh,..........I think I'll survive!

Not true, Joe! Remember THIS one? It WAS late, though, lol!

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Todd Hughes

Is that one of those rare long nose phase alternas? Too cool! LOL

haha, yep, ol' Joe thought we had done it, he beat me outta the truck so fast, the wind of his passing knocked me down! Or was that the passing of his wind that knocked me down?!LOL! He was kinda pissed at the little longnose but she was very pink instead of the fire engine red I was so used to seeing that I kept her and now I have a 1.2 Brewster trio. I have two on fuzzies but that girl is a lizard holdout. She did eat two pinkies last year but has refused since. I will keep trying, they are a neat snake.
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Todd Hughes

that was not even close to my biggest fake out down there. Among the many others was an emoryi stretched out in the road, that from the car, I was positive it was some funky Blairs. The Trimorphs down there usually get me too. I'm not sure why your Longnose fooled me, they usually don't, but that one sure did. Wishful thinking I guess.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

It will happen, you have mastered many locales, I hope I am with you when it does, I need to see the alterna shuffle done right!
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Todd Hughes

I find it to be very subjective. The closer the better, if the two snakes could have actually crossed paths that is the best, 3-6 miles apart.

I also think it's ok to look at the habitat and if the population is continuous and the habitat is uniform then the animals are likely experiencing gene flow within a few generations. The actual pair of snakes may not have been likely to cross paths but as long as their "children" or "grandchildren" could exchange genes they are still going to represent the overall population pretty well, 20-30 miles in continuous habitat. At the same time that should be weighed in with what the actual animals look like in the wild. If there are significant differences in appearance, perhaps due to elevation, even if the habitat is continuous I would divide them.

What's gonna happen when we start herping on the various private property sites that HCU and individuals are lining up. We may well end up with an explosion of new locales.

I'd love to find the founders of the "Purple Creek", "Red Bluff" (different Red Bluff, in S. Brewster Co), and "Jack Eden Mesa" locales.

THAT will be exciting in itself!
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Todd Hughes