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Introducing Potential Mates

HappyHillbilly Aug 27, 2007 08:18 PM

Introducing Potential Mates - a male & female savannah monitor.

I've got a male savannah monitor that was aprox. 2ft long and I'm guessing about 2yrs old when it was imported as a fresh w/c when I got it in December of last year ('06). He's now between 27 - 30 inches long.

I got a 4yr old, 3ft long female last week that has been captive since it was 6 - 8 inches long. She's a bit bigger than the male, in length & girth (overall).

I've never introduced any monitors before but I have a lot of experience introducing other reptiles and various animals for mating purposes and/or coexisting.

I feel that each animal and each introduction are different and based on several factors, mostly the nature of the animals to be introduced. In the case of these two savs, I feel that introducing them on neutral grounds is a must. There also needs to be plenty of room for escape or avoidance.

One idea I'm leaning towards is a gradual visual-only introduction taking place over several days, prior to physically introducing them. What I mean is to let them see each other through their cages for short periods at a time. Maybe even moving the cages closer each time, depending on their reactions.

Anyone have any experience introducing adult monitors or anyone lacking experience but have any thoughts, suggestions?

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Replies (12)

FR Aug 27, 2007 09:49 PM

Dude, just put them in the same cage. Thats all there is to it.

Also, without seeing the female, if its three feet and has not laid eggs, it may not be a female. What I am saying is, females normally are not that size. Thats just my first thought. Of course if it has laid eggs, then its a girl.

I do not think I ever introduced a male and female, I just put them together and let them introduce themselves.

I would have a little concern with the razor toothed species, but savs, they have dull teeth.

Anyway, if they are a pair there will be no problems. If they are two males, there still will not no problems. Cheers

HappyHillbilly Aug 27, 2007 11:21 PM

> > > Dude, just put them in the same cage. Thats all there is to it.

Ha! Ha! I knew you were going to say that, and I reckon if anyone should know it'd be you.

The reason for my, probably over-complicated, thinking, is because I've seen it said that just because they're M/F doesn't mean they'll be mates. In other words, I'm trying to create lust between 'em. I want 'em to WANT each other. Know what I mean? Yeah, I know you do because I just heard you say "KISS". Hahahaha!!!!

I had/have the same concerns/thoughts as you about whether its a female or not. Here's the scoop and a few pics.

The people I got it from said they've had it since it was 6 - 8 inches long. It's 4yrs old, 34 inches long STL, and they've never seen eggs. I asked how they know it's a female and they said no hemipene bulges and no extroverting during defecation.

The age, size & lack of eggs concerned me but comparing my 2ft male's rear end view to this one there's a definite difference, lack of bulges. When I went to check it out it defecated while I was holding it and I could see the hemipenal area very good. There wasn't any extroverting and no bulges.

With tail bent up over it's back there aren't any bulges and there's more of an indention in the middle.

Here's the pics:

[img]http://i140.photobucket.com/albums/r30/TSReptiles/rearview.jpg[/img

Here's a pic of my male:

What do you think (or know)?

Ha! You knew all along I was gonna go & get a female for my male sav, didn't you? Ha! Ha!

Sorry I haven't been around much lately, been super busy with several trips to FL & back, had my gall bladder taken out last week, and all sorts of other things.

Catch ya later!
HH
(Mike)
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

HappyHillbilly Aug 27, 2007 11:56 PM

I left off part of the img code and the female's rear end view didn't show in the post. Here's both the female & male's rear end view.

Female

Male

It's not plain in these pics but where the tail meets body, on the male, there is a bulge; on the female, there's not a bulge, the meat of the tail is flush with the meat of the body.

If the larger sav was the one with more of a hemipenal bulge I'd be inclined to think that the smaller sav just wasn't as well endowed or developed. But since it's the other way around I'm pretty confident that the smaller one is male & the larger one female. And if not, oh well, at least I will have learned something else.

Have a good one!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

FR Aug 28, 2007 12:07 AM

heres the deal, stop with the preventive medicine. Put them together and if something goes wrong, then you take the next step.

You do not start with the next step or step ten. Start with step one. which normally reduces the chances of taking any more of introduction steps.

That big fat thing does appear female(female shaped tail), but its too fat to see if any males parts exsist.

Anyway, I am not a fan of the way they are built. Cheers

HappyHillbilly Aug 28, 2007 12:38 AM

She's definitely fat, obese. I've been letting her free-roam the house for a few minutes a few times a day with hopes of it helping.

Thanks for your input, Frank.

Can I Q ya for a lil' bit more info? What do you think the deal is about her not having laid any eggs yet, at least, none that anyone's seen? The previous owners kept her on aprox 3 - 4 inches of aspen.

Will most, but not all, females lay eggs once they reach a certain body size? Isn't body size what basically determines sexual maturity instead of age, in monitors? (Aprox. 18 inches?)

Thanks, again!

Have a good one!
HH
(Mike)
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

FR Aug 28, 2007 09:17 AM

From her body shape, obesity, tiny feet(compared to her body and limbs) you are lucky she is alive. Remember, laying eggs, is a minimum level of husbandry. It shows conditions/support are barely right. If thats a female, its clearly been in very poor conditions, but at least enough to stay alive for that period.

If you watch that type of thing around here, you see it takes about 3 to 5 years to kill them off, organ damage and such.

You often hear me say, monitors are tuff, well that monitor is very tuff it should have been dead long ago. Truely I wish you well.

As an experienced breeder, I would NEVER, work with that type of animal if I had any choices. Remember, I always say this thing(the successful keeping of monitors) is about making choices. In this case. The choice is about picking an individual that will allow success, not cause you to beat your head against the wall.

One reason I ALWAYS recomend starting with a baby is. YOU KNOW THE HISTORY. With that animal, you have horrible results, so it has to have a poor history. If you think the outside is weird/deformed, what do you think the inside is going to be. Your battle has just took a turn for the worse.

In my opinion, 99% of females can and do breed without problem. That percentage drops as we torture them with all our poor knowledge(thats not right, actual knowledge would not cause that poor results) As we make errors and the monitors bull their way through, that percentage drops and drops and drops. So now your decisions may only allow you a 5 to 10% chance of success. Now ask yourself, are you going to make anymore mistakes? At this point, you have no more room for mistakes. Not a good start.

The absolute truth is, as successful as I am ON A CONSISTANT basis, I make mistakes each and everyday. Some of those, are harmless mistakes. hahahahahahahahaha Some work against that 99% chance I started with. Of course some, drop that percentage to zero.

To make it clear, these mistakes will ALWAYS cause that percentage of success to drop to ZERO. Its just a matter of time.

If you look at that in a logical way, your task becomes meaningful. You should now understand, that your job is not to do this or do that, because some caresheet or someone(fool) said so. Your task is to support a decent percentage. You know, keep that percentage high.

Because we do not know what the heck we are doing(how obvious is that?) a healthy female has a high percentage of having success, but even so, because we are all dumb arsess, we often cause healthy females to fail. YES, you can render a healthy functioning female to ZERO with one mistake.

When you consider, all the monitors that run through this site, year after year. All the females too. Its plain to see that no one should be giving advice. Wait, its ok for them to give advice, you should not be accepting it. As from newbies to experts, you know, ones with giant brains(think mars attacks) that make giant knowledge bases, where everything about everything is known, both fail at about the same rate. Real knowledge does not work like that.

Anyway due to this lack of knowledge. I work on keeping the percentages high. The exact knowledge is not meaningful to me. Things like species and such, and all that stuff monitors are suppose to be. I Don't care. keeping the percentages high works for me. You see, like you, I am unique, I am one of the best, and dumb as a stone. How cool is that? That statement has been make by many. From those same newbies to PHD's. hahahahahahahahahahaha Wait, I am not saying your dumb as a stone, at least not yet, your decisions will place that label on you.

Ok, Ok, forget all that. What I am saying is, DUDE, you have an uphill battle, are you ready for that? Cheers and good luck

HappyHillbilly Aug 28, 2007 10:46 AM

Dang, I just now realized how much I missed the intelligent discussions we have here in the forums. It feels like it's been ages since I was able to participate like this. Gotta try not to let that happen again. Man, I love learnin'!

Thanks for explaining the obesity, husbandry, lack of eggs, etc..., to me. That all makes sense and I see how it's all tied together.

Dumb? Ha! I'm dumber than a box of rocks, and I'm not afraid to admit it. Now, how dumb is that? Ha! Ha! As further proof, given what you just said about her health, I think that had I known or thought of that while inspecting her before getting her, I think that I still would've got her. I'd like to think that it's due to my confidence in my way with animals, but, I won't/can't rule out ignorance just yet.

And in case anyone needs further proof of me being being dumb, I even told the people I got her from that I was getting her against the advice of two experts (FR & Tom).

But like I've said before, I'm not doing this for my love of Savannah Monitors, I'm doing this for my love for the solitary male sav I already had, period. I'm pretty sure this is gonna be a one-shot ordeal. If something were to happen to this female, or the male, the other one will most likely live a solitary life from there on out. My next project will begin with a group of hatchlings, most likely a gouldi complex.

I don't recommend everyone follow my pursuit. In fact, as Frank pointed out, I've pretty much got to push my train up the mountain. It's determination that got me here and I'm hoping determination will get me through a successful learnin' experience. I'm bound to learn either way, win or lose.

Yeah, it's an uphill battle, and yeah, I'm ready for it. It's something that I have to do. No backin' out now, full steam ahead.

Thanks for the good luck and I appreciate your being there!

I'll keep ya'll posted.

Take care!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

FR Aug 28, 2007 01:01 PM

Please understand, I love what your doing(the hard way) It feels so good when the pain goes away. hahahahahahahahahaha

Of course I will support you as much as I can. And I truly hope, your lucky(buy that lotto ticket first). Cheers

HappyHillbilly Aug 28, 2007 01:30 PM

> > > buy that lotto ticket first

Wow, thanks for reminding me! The Mega Millions jackpot is up to $250 million and the drawing is tonight. If I were to hit it I could buy me a few fat chicks like I did for my male sav. LOL!!!

Whatever the case may be, no amount of money, success or failure will keep me from being "HappyHillbilly".

Thanks, again!

Take care!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

holygouda Aug 28, 2007 03:28 PM

"Wow, thanks for reminding me! The Mega Millions jackpot is up to $250 million and the drawing is tonight. If I were to hit it I could buy me a few fat chicks like I did for my male sav. LOL!!! "

LMAO! Wow.

That is wrong on so many levels. I think I need a shower.

Hock Aug 28, 2007 05:24 PM

Hey, if he likes hoggin, then more power to him, lol. The big girls need lovin to, but they ain't gettin from me =p.

BTW, good luck with Savs, they honestly deserve more respect than what they are given in the monitor world and they are often along with the Nile, very neglected and mistreated. Makes one sad to think that such a beautiful animal is in such poor condition.

HappyHillbilly Aug 28, 2007 10:28 PM

holygouda,
After reading my statement again I decided to take a shower myself, a COLD shower. LOL!

Hock,
They don't call me "Shallow Hal" for nuthin'. Hahahaha!!!

Thanks for the good luck!

Ya'll take care!
Mike
(HH)
Image
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

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