Reptile & Amphibian Forums

OK, I have had this idea for some time, but I can not think of a snake that it can be done with, so hypothetical for now.

If there was a leucistic corn, and you crossed with a melanistic.
First generation would be normal both het for each Mel and Leu.

Cross Hets, and 25% would show both leucistic and melanistic.

If not the same gene locus. meaning that loci is not multiallelic.
Also the genes are not next to each other which can play games with outcome.

So what would a Melanistic Leucistic look like?
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

...it depends on what is causing the leucisticism and what hence what you are really reffering to as "leucistic". A key example would be Ball Pythons where you have what are being called "leucistic" being caused by several different gene combo's and which look differently.

Feel free to correct me, I'm no expert, but it was my understanding that true leucisticism was where the skin cells would not accept pigmentation as opposed to other color morphs which modify the production of the pigments themselves. As an aspect of this, from what I remember, if you place pigment of some healthy pigment producing cells in the skin then it will still not exhibit the pigment, and if I remember correctly will get rid of the cells. Alternatively if you introduce the pigment not being produced by other color morphs then it will be exhibited at least for a while.

It's been a long time since I looked anything up though so please correct me if anyone out there can give a better/more accurate acount.

Sean.

...to answer your question before I hit enter.

If it is a true leucisitic as I described then a melanistic leucisitic would look exactly like a normal leucisitic and be indestinguishable other then through breeding trials.

If it is not then who knows what the result would be.

Sean.

yes a TRUE really lucy, genetic, not line bread. Same with Mel.

Why would the Lucy gene be dominate to the Mel?

Just for fun, lets pretend they are incomplete dominate to each other!!!

Showing both traits. I think there will be some wild combinations coming up in the next 10 years. Sadly most combos will be in hybrids. As you can take one snake that may have a key trait another, doesn't, but has a different key trait.

Making snakes undistinguishable, if the history is lost. As most snakes are IMO.
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

Ball Python genetics, as well as some boa genetics are
"ass-backwards" of recessive colubrid genetics.
Melanistic(hypermelanism)genes are co-dominant in corns along with the reds......melanophores produce the dark pigment,....and hypermelanistic animals possess an extensive amount of these melanophores.
The red/orange coloration is produced from Xanthophores. These chromatophores produce reds,orange and yellows, and in cornsnakes, can produce intermediate shades of these colors as well, but have a predominantly red coloration from cells known as "erythrophores". Cornsnakes usually have a tendency to become more yellow as they age, especially in the first third of their body and is thought to be due to "carotenoid" retention from their diet.

Since the dark pigment on the "hypermelanistic" animal is a wild-caught "normal" gene, just a greater amount of the cells that produce dark coloration as mentioned above, it wouldn't necessarily be expressed with any certainty to the offspring like it absolutely would in a amelanistic pairing, or many other recessive pairings for that matter.

I'm not trying to come off as some sort of genetisist to show-off all the big words,.....just trying to help explain what is responsible for what!LOL

So in the hypothetical(another big word!LOL) situation you mentioned before, the snakes that would be bred would'nt be anything more than leucistic, or het for leucistic animals with a normal wild-caught predominance for being darker animals.

If you had TWO very dark corns in a pairing, you would have a tendency to produce darker than normal offspring.

This will either help, or possibly confuse you even more!LOL, but I hope it helps.

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I thought there was a TRUE melanistic form of some snakes? Not hyper, or line bred? Like garters? I thought this was a recessive gene. Not like boa, where so many things are co dom, and that in itself is used loosely.

Back to IF

So if,,, IF, there were a simple recessive gene in this hypothetical snake, to make it a true MEL.. And a simple recessive gene to make a LEU, in the same sp, were to mate, the first offspring would be normals het for both LEU and MEL,, to lazy to type out leucistic and melanistic.

Mate those babies and 25% would in theory be phenotype for both Mel and LEU. Now for some silly reason, I picture a black and white pied. Which would be very cool.

It's just been one of those things spinning in my head.
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

You're absolutely right about there being wild "melanistic" snakes in the wild, with no influence from humans whatsoever.
but those populations of melanistic(hypermelanistic) animals, such as the melanistic Hognose(I caught a completely black one) in Ft.Pierce,FL. two years ago crossing the I-95 off-ramp!, and Garter snake, etc....I think those are co-dom traits(someone please chime in on this if I'm wrong!)........others, like the melanistic Cal. King I think are recessive?.....so the theoretical cornsnake you are talking about would not fall into the category of being a mixture of the two. But......stranger things have happened before in the hobby, with "parodox" animals such as that goofy Honduran on the "milksnake" forum that came from two Pure Hondurans from Mike Falcon that were sold to a guy that produced a "super-freak" animal!!!!!

Check it out on the milksnake forum!, you will be "boggled" by it!.......Mike F. from who he bought the parents would have NEVER sold them if he knew about what it produced, or the freaky individual either, that's for sure!

The post is towards the top of the page, and has got lots of comments!

best regards, ~Doug
-----
"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Sorry, melanistic in the eastern garter snake is a recessive mutant gene. I do not know whether anyone has worked out the genetics of the black hognose.

I'd expect a leucistic melanistic to look like the regular leucistics. That's what happens in pigeons and cats and chickens. There are supposed to be leucistic eastern garters besides the melanistic eastern garters. So the combination could be made to test the idea.

Epistasis (noun form; verb form is "epistatic" ) is the phenomenon of having one mutant gene mask the effect of a mutant gene at a different locus. IOW, I'd expect the leucistic mutant to be epistatic to the melanistic mutant.

Paul Hollander

I'm pretty sure leu mel = leu in appearance.

My understanding of Leucisticism is not that it is a white pigment morph but that it prevents other pigments from expressing in the skin/scales of the snake. If this is the case then it would not matter how much melanin it produced you still would not see it in the skin/scales.

On the pied appearance line of thought. From what I've heard the piedbalds are a incomplete form of the leucisticism where instead of causing all skin/scale cells to reject pigment it is only a certain portion of the skin/scale cells. It is supposed to be a completely different gene but which prevents pigment, on the cellular level, in the same way. This is also a counter example to the leu mel=pie in that piebalds have plenty of melanin pigment but certain parts of their skin/scales reject it.

Sean.

Heart breaker!

lol
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

lol didn't mean to rain on your parade or anything.

Just giving what i would honestly expect.

Although if it is a piedbald look you want we have that in corns currently although not widely available yet.

If you wanted a black piebald then you could go for a really dark anery piebald or if you aren't dead set on corns then you could get a piebald black rat.

Sean.

na. Was an out there question to begin with.
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

........

not the thing you wanted......we'd have to do it to find out......

...sold I think as albino leucistic southern pine???

........

-----
.....too many BIG girls.........

.
.
.

I'm not a huge pine family fan. But that one is very VERY nice.
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

>>
>>So what would a Melanistic Leucistic look like?
>>-----

black and white checkerboard?
-----
Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

>>>>
>>>>So what would a Melanistic Leucistic look like?
>>>>-----
>>
>>
>>
>>black and white checkerboard?
>>-----
>>Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
>>"Resistance is futile"
>>Jimmy Johnson
>>(Draybar)
>> Draybars Snakes
>>
>>_____
-----
Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com