Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Folks,

Since I'm still curious about anery BRB's and I had some free time today, I did some web surfing to try to learn more about erythrin, pigmentation, etc. I found a lot of interesting articles, although some were tough to follow given the scientific jargon. But bottom line seems to be that the amount and hue of red skin pigmentation ultimately comes from the animal's diet.. at least for fish. (I believe the same is true for reptiles, but so far I've only found limited research on reptiles.) So fish breeders use certain supplements to enhance the colors of their fish. So that leads to my question to the forum - does anyone know if this same type of thing has been attempted with BRB's, or for that matter, any type of snake/reptile, in order to brighten
the animal's colors? Having only my layman opinion, I would think that if it works for fish there's a good chance it would work for BRB's. Heck, if you or I eat a lot of carrots (which
contain the type of caretenoid which causes orange coloration),
we will develop orange pigmentation in our skin.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Ed

get a life of course I am kidding so relax pimp. This subject came up a few months (maybe 5 or 6) and Jeff mentioned that he tried it with no results so he stopped but what do you think about those anery's-they are pimpin' huh?
Bob

>>get a life

Ha, my wife already told me that today when I brought up
the subject.

Sorry if this is a rehash, I didn't start reading this newsgroup
until recently. I'm curious what Jeff tried. Some of the fish
studies I came across indicated that only certain types of carotenoids work on certain fish, so it might be a trial and error experiment with different types of supplements. Maybe
someone can try stuffing carrots in the feeder rats' mouths before feeding.

As far as what I think about the anery's, I think they are awesome.. when they are babies. I'll leave it at that.

>>of course I am kidding so relax pimp. This subject came up a few months (maybe 5 or 6) and Jeff mentioned that he tried it with no results so he stopped but what do you think about those anery's-they are pimpin' huh?
>>Bob

and I think it was mentioned in part of a thread but don't even bother about asking cuz I ain't afraid to learn something I got a pretty good memory but I am wrong sometimes but I may have been high and/or drunk (j/k) and this never happened either lol
Bob

dave and jeff are known for using food coloring in there rainbows as did i but i tried to make it more rainboewed and fed to much and my snake turned fat and all black so be carefull on how much food coloring you use
this is the end resault in worn amounts of to many different food colorings

I'll take that fat, ugly "BRB" off your hands since you don't want it.

Very good, thanks for the laugh!

>>dave and jeff are known for using food coloring in there rainbows as did i but i tried to make it more rainboewed and fed to much and my snake turned fat and all black so be carefull on how much food coloring you use
>>this is the end resault in worn amounts of to many different food colorings
>>

i dont know if i said ugly in there but man is he fat lol

dye packets that exploded in the intestinal tract?????????
Bob

lol they only need a lil of the info not all lol

male brb you got with the little temper I am gonna do my best to expose big ole' Timmaylol
Bob

i wouldnt quite call it a temper just not trust worthy lol he is a good guy just a little iffy lol main thign to watch out for is when holding him dont be around other ppl they will be the first to get it

I'm noe expert but I believe that in fish and frogs (Fire-bellied toads most notably) and in the example of carrots and humans, it's excess pigmentation from foods being deposited in the skin. The frogs are not making the proteins that cause the red belly and we are not making the prteins that cause orange skin.

In the case of BRBs, they are synthesizing the proteins that cause red pigmentation. This is explained when we consider that pretty much all captive BRBs are eating the same thing (unless someone is feeding theirs beets or something) and the look vastly different.

Any other thoughts?
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Hey Mike,

That's a great point, I'm glad you brought it up. Everything
I said is based on the premise that animals can't synthesize
the proteins necessary for red pigmentation, which seems to be
the prevailing theory (at least from the research I've seen.)
But seems like even geneticists/biologists don't really know for
sure about issues like this, so no way would I disagree with your conclusion. I'm certain you know a lot more than I do!

But I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning. Might it be
possible that individual snakes have varying degrees (due
to genetics and/or normal variation) of metabolizing the carotenoids? That could also explain why snakes eating the same diet would have different shades of red/orange.

Now that I think about it, maybe red pigment could be both
synthesized and metabolized, which would mean an already red snake could me made redder, orange snake "orangier", etc.
Maybe we both could be right.

Great discussion! BTW, if you ever come across any other
research on this issue, please post it.

Thanks,
Ed

>>I'm noe expert but I believe that in fish and frogs (Fire-bellied toads most notably) and in the example of carrots and humans, it's excess pigmentation from foods being deposited in the skin. The frogs are not making the proteins that cause the red belly and we are not making the prteins that cause orange skin.
>>
>>In the case of BRBs, they are synthesizing the proteins that cause red pigmentation. This is explained when we consider that pretty much all captive BRBs are eating the same thing (unless someone is feeding theirs beets or something) and the look vastly different.
>>
>>Any other thoughts?
>>-----
>>Mike Lockwood
>>www.tooscaley.com

I agree this is an interesting discussion.

I wasn't aware that it was so widely believed that animals cannot synthesize red pigments. So, I'm sure I don't know too much more about the subject than you. But this makes sense in the case of the fire-bellied toad. I think I've heard that if their diet isn't supplemented with red pigmentation, their bellies remain black and grey.

I'mm leaning more towardsd your second thought. Yes, there must be some kind of genetic difference in the ability to metabolize (produce) the carotenoids.

Man, I would love to do a little reading on this subject. if I come across anything, I will be sure to pass it on to you if you'll do the same for me O.K.
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

Ed,
...8 or 10 ears ago I was using a product called Nekton-Rep Color. It has carotenes in it and when I would put the powder in water bowls it would make nice bright red-orange spots. I would put it in water bowls for a couple days every couple of weeks. I used it for a couple years and finally decided that it was probably not working to enhance the color of my snakes. Nekton is a German company that was way ahead of any of the US companies with vitamin supplements for reptiles. I think they are also into supplements for tropical fish and probably know more about the subject than anyone else in the reptile/fish food supplement business. I still see Nekton products around but I have not seen Nekton-Rep Color for sale anywhere in many years.
...IMO snakes that are getting a diet of live and/or reasonably fresh killed rodents need no vitamin supplementation. I also think that some people are over supplementing with calcium containing products and inducing hypercalcemia with resultant muscular weakness in their snakes.
Jeff

>>Folks,
>>
>>Since I'm still curious about anery BRB's and I had some free time today, I did some web surfing to try to learn more about erythrin, pigmentation, etc. I found a lot of interesting articles, although some were tough to follow given the scientific jargon. But bottom line seems to be that the amount and hue of red skin pigmentation ultimately comes from the animal's diet.. at least for fish. (I believe the same is true for reptiles, but so far I've only found limited research on reptiles.) So fish breeders use certain supplements to enhance the colors of their fish. So that leads to my question to the forum - does anyone know if this same type of thing has been attempted with BRB's, or for that matter, any type of snake/reptile, in order to brighten
>>the animal's colors? Having only my layman opinion, I would think that if it works for fish there's a good chance it would work for BRB's. Heck, if you or I eat a lot of carrots (which
>>contain the type of caretenoid which causes orange coloration),
>>we will develop orange pigmentation in our skin.
>>
>>Thoughts?
>>
>>Thanks,
>>Ed

Jeff, I completely agree with...

>>...IMO snakes that are getting a diet of live and/or reasonably fresh killed rodents need no vitamin supplementation.

As I have posted before, I have my own rodent colony and feed them various rodent block food. I know my feeders are nice and healthy with no loss of nutrients flom freezing or even simply being not freshly killed. My snakes are thriving on this diet. When I bought Eve and babies, I had to find a new reptile vet since my old one had retired (unknown to me) several years earlier. My point is, I have not had a snake get sick in many years.

My info is one sided though, I don't have any control sample of F/T fed snakes to compare with. No need to fix what aint broke!

-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Hey Jeff,

Thanks for the information. I think it's neat that you tried that Nekton product. The thing is, at least according to what I've seen, there are dozens or hundreds of different types of caretonoids that can might cause reddish pigmentation. And probably different animals use different ones! Here's a link to an abstract for a study done on goldfish:

http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi/abs/10.1111/j.1365-2109.2005.01374.x

This study showed only one of three types of carotenoids had an affect on the fish's coloration. (As Mike pointed out, this study could be totally irrelevant, though, if BRB's get their red pigmentation solely by synthesizing it.) So the product you used might have been completely useless for BRB's, but works
great for certain amphibians. Who knows???

Hey, they do still sell the stuff!

http://www.centralah.com/NektonProd.htm

Maybe I'll e-mail them and ask them to back up there claims with some science.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting anyone should try to or needs to supplement healthy snakes for any reason, much
less a comsetic one. In fact, I'd be scared to do so, who knows what the side effects might be. I was just curious if anyone has tried it and if so, was it successful. And the amateur biologist in me wants to know this type of useless stuff.

Hey, I'll make a deal with you. If you bankroll my tuition so I can go back to school and get a biology degree, I'll give you sole rights to the magic formula I come up with that will make your snakes Fire engine red with yellow crescents.

Thanks,
Ed

>>Ed,
>>...8 or 10 ears ago I was using a product called Nekton-Rep Color. It has carotenes in it and when I would put the powder in water bowls it would make nice bright red-orange spots. I would put it in water bowls for a couple days every couple of weeks. I used it for a couple years and finally decided that it was probably not working to enhance the color of my snakes. Nekton is a German company that was way ahead of any of the US companies with vitamin supplements for reptiles. I think they are also into supplements for tropical fish and probably know more about the subject than anyone else in the reptile/fish food supplement business. I still see Nekton products around but I have not seen Nekton-Rep Color for sale anywhere in many years.
>>...IMO snakes that are getting a diet of live and/or reasonably fresh killed rodents need no vitamin supplementation. I also think that some people are over supplementing with calcium containing products and inducing hypercalcemia with resultant muscular weakness in their snakes.
>>Jeff
>>
>>>>Folks,
>>>>
>>>>Since I'm still curious about anery BRB's and I had some free time today, I did some web surfing to try to learn more about erythrin, pigmentation, etc. I found a lot of interesting articles, although some were tough to follow given the scientific jargon. But bottom line seems to be that the amount and hue of red skin pigmentation ultimately comes from the animal's diet.. at least for fish. (I believe the same is true for reptiles, but so far I've only found limited research on reptiles.) So fish breeders use certain supplements to enhance the colors of their fish. So that leads to my question to the forum - does anyone know if this same type of thing has been attempted with BRB's, or for that matter, any type of snake/reptile, in order to brighten
>>>>the animal's colors? Having only my layman opinion, I would think that if it works for fish there's a good chance it would work for BRB's. Heck, if you or I eat a lot of carrots (which
>>>>contain the type of caretenoid which causes orange coloration),
>>>>we will develop orange pigmentation in our skin.
>>>>
>>>>Thoughts?
>>>>
>>>>Thanks,
>>>>Ed

I do believe there is some work being done on this by a person who frequents the rat snake boards, he has some wild differences in color, especially between his albino rosy boas.