Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi, I am trying to put together the money to make my snake breeding room. I love snakes and now I want to make my dream of being a breeder come true. I quit my job (I hated it anyway) and took a job as a vet assistant, so I can make him teach me genetics beyond the basics I learned in school. I bought my first snakes for breeding instead of snakes for pets from hummel recently. And I am trying to figure out how I can join the professional breeders. I am looking for the best books on snake breeding and genetics. (any suggestions?) and I am trying to design a layout and find a affordable and workable rack system. I will be tiling and epoxy painting an entire room and humidity controlling the whole thing, so my cages can be wire or mesh. I found some great PID controllers that will control and monitor temp and humidity and call my cell phone is anything breaks. I will only be breeding rainbows, and as soon as I have a functioning and reliable climate controlled breeding room, I want to take out a loan for an albino rainbow, because I can see that morphs are where the money is at(I want to be able to make enough money at this to support myself and my business) and it seems that the albino gene is the key to all the new morphs. But I am having one hell of a time finding cheap mesh cages, and industrial food-service racks. (it seems like this is a good combo) I can't make my own melamine or laminate racks cuz I don't have the construction skills. Do you guys have any advice or product suggestions for someone who wants to join you guys? Any book suggestions? any pictures of your facilities? (saw rainbowsrus's but I can't do that cuz I just don't have the carpentry skills, and I am hesitant to hire a carpenter cuz they will cost an arm and a leg)
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-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

also how did you guys get started? Is it realistic for me to think I could support myself with this business? I know a lot of people are wanting to become breeders now, and the last thing I want to do is compete with the people who helped me. (you guys have all helped me with my stupid questions.) I know people are saying that the reptile industry is exploding, is there enough demand that I won't have to worry about getting business? Will I always have to have a second job to support this?
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-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

I believe most of the people here do this as a hobby they enjoy - not neccessarily to make money. I look it as somthing that I can enjoy doing and bring in some money while I am at it.

You will know when you are at a point that you can quit a 'normal' job, and sustain yourself from snake breeding. There are too many factors to try to determine how long before you would be able to quit your job.
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Mike

6.7 BRB
1.2 Spotted Python
1.0 Cal. King

Jasmine,

I'm not a breeder, but I do have some experience/training in business. My suggestion would be, if you haven't already done so, is to take a step back and write up a business plan of some sort. Even a basic plan with predicted income and expenses would help. My gut feeling (which means little) is that it would be extremely difficult (not impossible) to make a decent living, but a realistic business plan would show if that is true or not.

And I assure you, very few lenders (other than maybe family/friends) will not loan you money unless you have some sort of business plan.

Just my $.02

Thanks,
Ed

>>also how did you guys get started? Is it realistic for me to think I could support myself with this business? I know a lot of people are wanting to become breeders now, and the last thing I want to do is compete with the people who helped me. (you guys have all helped me with my stupid questions.) I know people are saying that the reptile industry is exploding, is there enough demand that I won't have to worry about getting business? Will I always have to have a second job to support this?
>>-----
>>-Jasmine
>>
>>1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
>>(Mercutio and Kajika)

MANY YEARS AND A LOT OF PLANNING AND HARD WORK…
Breeding reptiles is not soon likely to Make enough money to support yourself without a regular job.....I have tried for years and still cannot make ends meet without a regular paycheck...But it does make it easier between jobs and allows me to be more selective about getting a job because I want it and not because I need it financially. I think most of the other people on here will agree (I don’t know of anyone on this forum who has quickly and easily started a snake business that supported them entirely).

About the competition thing,… I want you to succeed and I will do what I can to help you breed these guys. By my logic, if you get animals from me, successfully raise them and start producing your own spectacular rainbowboas from my stock, THAT IS THE BEST ADVERTISING I COULD HOPE FOR. The more people that enjoy, keep and breed rainbowboas successfully, the better it is for the larger breeders…who are better able to fill the added demand. I have already noticed the popularity of rainbowboas spike in the last two years and i feel it in part to more beautiful animals being out in the public an also partly because this forum has been so good about getting lots of good information out to the public. I am not on here often enough to take any credit for this recent rainbowboa forum popularity....so to all you forum junkies.....THANKS!!!!
Bryan Hummel (BHH for speed)

JR2002#15...pregnant in 2006.

I had to scroll left/right/up/down several times to see the whole thing...

Beautiful BRB BTW
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

Yeah, this is a volatile hobby, I and I would venture to say MOST others as well are not supporting themselves by breeding and selling reptiles. At best for most of us is suplemental income. Typicla is more or less paying for the hobby and for myself and I suspect others as well helps offset some of the expenses, NOT all of them.

Your best plan IMO would be to build up your business. At some time it may be fully self sufficient and able to support you as well. At that point you could quit your day job.

Honestly, without more experience, going for the albino might be a huge risk. What if you are unable to breed it, have problems raising it etc. Just having one is NO gaurantee of being able to raise and breed it. Even with lots of experience, it would be a huge risk!!
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

yeah, everyone is suggesting against buying th albino, and I think you guys are right. It's not like I could just return it if it was sterile or wouldn't breed or died of some weird genetic malfunction.
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-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

I have had two males from the Darin Bell Bloodline of hypos since 1999......AND NEVER PRODUCED A SINGLE BABY FROM EITHER OF THESE MALES.

So without a lot of breeding experience, I would suggest against it as well. If you are loaded and want a cool pet that you may someday reproduce....Then by all means get one. I think they are really pretty and have some great potential, But I would suggest waiting until your rainbowboa income is great enough to pay for the snake in full. That is my plan, But it may still be a few years down the road for me as well...
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Bryan Hummel
www.rainbowboas.com

I am slightly confused. you guys have tons of breeding females, and just assuming that you only breed them every other year, that would mathmatically give you half as many per year, so say you only have 30 females, and you breed 15 of them this year and you only get 20 babies from each one that's 300 babies. and let's just call them 150$ each cuz they won't all be nice that's 45000$ a year, that's enough to live pretty well. is housing and heating and feeding that much? Am I totally off on this math? I know questions about your income are pretty personal, and I don't want to offend anyone. But you can understand that I want to know where the hidden costs are. I mean dave has 36 breeding females and he says that he has a day job. In the space that I have I could fix 55 (40gal) enclosures. (I want them to have some exercise room) that's around 20 breedable females that's 60000$ a year.
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-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

The problem arises with selling 300 baby snakes retail. The most I've ever had in one year was 136. Even then I sold roughly half wholesale. Did run out and coulda sold more but not 4 or 5X what I did sell retail.
carrying costs will eat you alive, one feeder per snake per week, plus caging, plus bedding. not a huge issue for a handfull, becomes a much larger issue for a larger group. I raise my own feeders but if I had 300 baby snakes, would have to buy at a higher cost that raising my own.

Also, 36 females, does not mean 36 breeding females, yet
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Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

...is a witch! even at cheap bulk prices from rodentpro if you figure in shipping you are still paying $0.50/meal for each baby.

So on a 300 lot of babies you'd be forking out $150 minimum each week until they were ready to sell and sold. That doesn't take into account the other overhead people mentioned like electricity, bedding, upkeep of breeders, etc...

Not trying to be discouraging, just trying to make sure you walk in fully away and aren't blindsided.

Sean.

That seems like a lot of snakes to expect to sell. That's about 6 per week. Is there really a big enough market out there for rainbow boas to support that assumption? Also, keep in mind you have to recoup your startup costs (fifty-five 40 gallon enclosures, renovations to the room, cost of the initial breeding stock), as well as pay back any loans (plus interest) for any expensive morphs you to purchase. What about advertising costs? How will you market/sell the snakes? Website? How much will that cost? Travel to shows? There will be travel costs.

Not trying to be a grinch, just trying to help. Again, I believe
it would be wise to gather more information from the experts here and put together a business plan or at least a spreadsheet (listing all the startup costs, projected sales revenue, expenses, etc.) BEFORE jumping in headfirst, assuming you are doing this as your primary source of income rather than a hobby.

Okay, so now I'm up to $.04.

Thanks,
Ed

>>I am slightly confused. you guys have tons of breeding females, and just assuming that you only breed them every other year, that would mathmatically give you half as many per year, so say you only have 30 females, and you breed 15 of them this year and you only get 20 babies from each one that's 300 babies. and let's just call them 150$ each cuz they won't all be nice that's 45000$ a year, that's enough to live pretty well. is housing and heating and feeding that much? Am I totally off on this math? I know questions about your income are pretty personal, and I don't want to offend anyone. But you can understand that I want to know where the hidden costs are. I mean dave has 36 breeding females and he says that he has a day job. In the space that I have I could fix 55 (40gal) enclosures. (I want them to have some exercise room) that's around 20 breedable females that's 60000$ a year.
>>-----
>>-Jasmine
>>
>>1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
>>(Mercutio and Kajika)

Jasmine,
....I like the way you think. It is exactly the way I was thinking 20 years ago when I was contemplating having the same results with boids that I had been having with Cornsnakes. All my female Cornsnakes produced nice clutches every years so I was gonna have the same results with boids and make a million dollars. Unfortunately I later found out that boid reproduction is not quite so easy and definitely not as productive. A breeding collection with 30 adult female BRBs does have the potential to produce 300 babies a year but in the time I have been breeding them my production is way less than that. I can keep BRBs alive for a long time if I do not try to breed them. The stress of cooling and warming them back up and having the females dedicate so much energy to reproduction takes it's toll and there are some losses. Are you ready to risk losing a $25,000 snake trying to breed it? You may have seen my ads running here on kingsnake.com. I have been advertisinf BRBs for $100 each and they are selling but not real fast. I probably answer a dozen emails for every snake I sell. I would hate to think of spending a couple hours a day answering emails just to sell BRBs for $100 each. I wholesale many of them every year for around $75 each and am happy to not have to deal with so many people. IMO big shows are the best place to sell snakes. Prices for single baby BRBs at the Daytona show were mostly right around $100.
Jeff

>>I am slightly confused. you guys have tons of breeding females, and just assuming that you only breed them every other year, that would mathmatically give you half as many per year, so say you only have 30 females, and you breed 15 of them this year and you only get 20 babies from each one that's 300 babies. and let's just call them 150$ each cuz they won't all be nice that's 45000$ a year, that's enough to live pretty well. is housing and heating and feeding that much? Am I totally off on this math? I know questions about your income are pretty personal, and I don't want to offend anyone. But you can understand that I want to know where the hidden costs are. I mean dave has 36 breeding females and he says that he has a day job. In the space that I have I could fix 55 (40gal) enclosures. (I want them to have some exercise room) that's around 20 breedable females that's 60000$ a year.
>>-----
>>-Jasmine
>>
>>1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
>>(Mercutio and Kajika)

>>Are you ready to risk losing a $25,000 snake trying to breed it?

Jeff makes a great point here regarding risk. Keep in
mind not only would you be out $25,000 for the snake (plus
any interest you may have to pay), but all the predicted
income (which would be substantial given the special type
of morph!) will no longer be realized. So it's a double
whammy that could be cause huge financial distress.

Thanks,
Ed

This "Breeders Secret" wholesale method leaves many breeders with the nicest of the babies which will be sold to individuals who want really nice animals…. and it keeps the number of baby snakes to a manageable number (and maximizes quality).
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Bryan Hummel
www.rainbowboas.com

I would love nothing better than going to Daytona and meeting the breeders and selling babies and talking snakes with people for a job.
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-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

cages for free (the snakes) but I don't know about the rodent ones lol and that is truly a dream coming to reality going to Daytona and meeting Jeff, Mike(s), Dave, Bryan, Frank, Timmay and of course that crb loving idiot we call Scott Evil, Tim and sorry if I forgot anyone too
Bob

... my Indigos' cages when I get them?

>>cages for free (the snakes) but I don't know about the rodent ones lol and that is truly a dream coming to reality going to Daytona and meeting Jeff, Mike(s), Dave, Bryan, Frank, Timmay and of course that crb loving idiot we call Scott Evil, Tim and sorry if I forgot anyone too
>>Bob

a product called provent-a-bite I would cuz those puppies are quick but they are drop dead gorgeous too. Got any womas?
Bob

p.s. don't they bite???

I wasn't even thinking about getting bit, I was thinking
about the frequent cleanings of the cage. Indigo's
eat a lot more than most snakes, thus they crap a lot.
One guy on another forum even claimed his indigo let out
a big fart that smelled up the house! I hope mine don't
bite, but I guess I'll find out. I'm getting them because of
the positives - they are supposedly extremely alert, friendly and intelligent. If they are not, I won't be keeping them very long!

I don't have any snakes currently, much less a really nice
one like a woma. So right now I'm a pathetic wannabe who
lives vicariously through this forum and reads up on carotenoids. I just got word my Indigo permit is getting processed, so
hopefully only a couple more weeks...

Do you have any womas? Those are beautiful snakes!

Thanks,
Ed

>>a product called provent-a-bite I would cuz those puppies are quick but they are drop dead gorgeous too. Got any womas?
>>Bob
>>
>>p.s. don't they bite???

womas for me but they are awesome. Hey what the hell I'll clean those cages for you if you buy me some Olive Garden Well since you're about to get your indigos are you having trouble sleeping yet cuz you might the night or two before they come lol. Hope you enjoy then and read up on those carotenoids haha nice chatting with you Ed
Bob

Yeah, all this waiting is driving me a little nuts, but
it's actually a good thing so I can get the enclosure set
up properly and get the the temperatures tweaked to what
they need to be.

Shoot, if you clean the cages, I'll even buy you dessert!
Just make sure you get the carrot cake so your
skin turns orange.

Thanks,
Ed

>>womas for me but they are awesome. Hey what the hell I'll clean those cages for you if you buy me some Olive Garden Well since you're about to get your indigos are you having trouble sleeping yet cuz you might the night or two before they come lol. Hope you enjoy then and read up on those carotenoids haha nice chatting with you Ed
>>Bob

Hello Jasmine,

It sounds like you have done a lot of thinking on this, and I would just tell you to keep this up.

As far as cages / rack systems go - Animal Plastics, Boaphile and Vision are just a few companies that make them. To this point I have bought my cages and racks, as my work does not leave me much time to build. Setting up a controlled room sounds like a good way to go.

As far as genetics go. In the rainbow's there are not too many morphs - yet, so it is still fairly easy. I am not sure where you will get a albino rainbow as I am not aware there are any in the US. I believe there are a couple of albino columbian rainbows, but not brazilian. The books are a bit outdated on genetics as the number of morphs have exploded the last couple of years. I believe that NERD's (New england Reptile Distributors) website talks a bit about genetics, and some praise Kevin for starting the morphs in Ball Pythons.

I bought a fancy cat from a breeder that teaches genetics at a college, and he said that talking to snake breeders would get better information than any book could give.
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Mike

6.7 BRB
1.2 Spotted Python
1.0 Cal. King

Yeah just think things through before comiting all out.

As far as albino's I do not know of any albino BRB's in america (might be but not that I know of) but I do know of at least one breeder working with albino CRB's and albino CRBxBRB.

As others have said I would focus more on buildign up a quality stock of breeders including normals, hypo's, and possibly anery's. If you get those going with good quality breeders then you'd be excellently positioned for any new morphs coming out.

In terms of caging I wpould highly suggest buying stackable prebuilt units unless you have the carpentry skills to build your own units like Dave does. The prebuilt are relatively cost effective and efficient for use(making your own you'll usually spend as much as a prebuilt will cost you). Temp controlling a whole room is usefull but I am not sure you would get anything out of humidity controlling it. Keeping a humid room environment(like greenhouses) has all sorts of problems like condensation in electronis, mold/mildew, rot, etc... but humidity is very easily managed on a enclosure by enclosure basis without alot of those risks.

Lastly I would encourage you to get into breeding because you enjoy it and then try to make it pay for itself/profit. The perfect counter examples to this approach are what constantly goes on within the Ball Python community and the many many people who sank thousands into red tail morphs thinking they'd make a killing off babies only to end up 10 years later still without babies. I'm not trying to discourage you but keep in mind the animal husbandry/pet trade is never a sure thing.

Sean

Good point on not needing to humidity control the room. I keep on having to drill more holes in tubs for my rack as they have been holding more humidity in than I would like. This level of humidity is from a water bowl and a small moss box.

Yes, the Morph sem to have more problems than normal animals, and there are people who have spent a fortune and not had any results - ie. large cash outlay and no return.
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Mike

6.7 BRB
1.2 Spotted Python
1.0 Cal. King

I don't know about epoxying a whole room cuz that sounds crazy but they do make paints that are available for indoors made specifically for use around indoor hot tubs. If you possess no carpentry skills the try to buy the material or have a company just simply cut the pieces for you since melamine can be bought at around 25-30 bucks a sheet and you pick it up from their shop and you assemble it since it will be heavy and more than likely won't be able to maneuver (sp?) the snake furniture in the room once it's assembled. Caging will either be sweat and tears or money I believe. Morphs are where big money's at but so are very very very very nice normals are also. Regardless of which route you choose quality is the key to selling your animals also so starting off with fire a-- parents make for fire a-- babies. You might want to get a hypo and a het or a couple of hets or trio for that morph, since anery's are expensive you might want to pick up a pair of hets for that cuz when the albino comes out you best believe Ian will have a snow or a sunglow lol hanging around cuz there is no sense in releasing the albino when you don't have the edge on the competition so to speak or at least I would do that but by having some anery's and hypos to choose from by the point the albinos come out you can have some quality breeding stock for your collection when the binos come out. But you can expect about 20k for an albino so maybe 15-18k for some hets but having nice normals producing a clutch of 15 at let's say 125 on average just assuming they are all not beautiful like you would like so that would be almost 1900 and that is for normals and you could also sell one or two hypos a year at a discounted price to undersell the competition a little but the best quality will demand the best price of course there is always some ifs to it also. Man (I mean gal), I started babbling and got carried away but these are just my thoughts on the matter
Bob

they sell epoxy paint, and I just wanted to do that so that I wouldn't have to buy 200$ stackable cages the PID controller is on the other side of the wall and controls the heater, or AC or sprinklers on the inside and checks it with the water resistant probe. it was my dad's idea, I usually just take his idea as the best option because he is so smart, but routing the sprinklers to many individual cages and temp controlling the whole room might be cheaper, I need to settle on my best cage options before I can to any price comparisons. this is the controller I was looking at: http://www.omega.com/ppt/pptsc.asp?ref=CN1514_CN1517&Nav=temp07 It seems like the best controller on the market, and it would be easier with this equipment to do a whole room cuz each probe is like 100$. but I guess I could just do tub racks with wet paper towel in them or wet moss hides. Thank you for your advice.
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-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

Jasmine,
...You might find this link interesting
www.stock-market-crash.net/tulip-mania.htm

...The reptile morph market is a "house of cards" and it will collapse soon. I have been saying that and I have been proven WRONG for the last 18 years. Seriously, it seems to me that the base commercial value of any snake is it's potential to be a commonly kept pet. At some point breeders will produce so many morphs that they no longer have speculators to buy them but must depend on the base value of the snake purely as a pet. On the other hand, I know many people who make their living breeding reptiles. Most of them do it breeding morphs. Nearly all of them had lots of experience breeding reptiles as a hobby before they invested in morphs and made it work as a profitable business. To me the very funniest thing in the herp community has been the rubber heads who do not know the difference between a Kingsnake and a Black Racer but decided they could make a living breeding Ball Python morphs. Many of them invested a fortune in BP morphs and several years later have not hatched an egg. Ball Python morph prices have fallen so much that many of the people who got in late and have been slow to produce babies will end up either losing money or not making much for all the time they have invested. I watched colubrid morph prices drop over the last 20 years. Prices for Ball and Burm and Reticulated Python morphs have gone through a similar fall. The people who made money were either very early with a particular morph or very shrewd in picking which ones to work with. I expected the same decline to happen with Bci morph prices but they have remained hot for quite a long time. Many people are saying that the Rainbow Boa morph market is the next hot ticket. This will somewhat depend on what happens in the next few years as people mix and cross the Rainbow morphs. The animals that are or are not produced from these efforts will pretty much determine whether Rainbow Morphs really have been the smart choice. My pick right now for the best potential to make money in the morph market is Ricardo Rubio's Colombian Rainbow albinos. The one question with this morph is what do they look like as adults. As babies they are stunning. If crossing them to other Rainbow morphs does not work out the looks of the adults will be very important and so far Ricardo seems to be reluctant to show PICs of adults here on the forum.

...You may have seen the thread on the Boa forum recently where someone took a shot at Dave Colling because he seems so precise in everything he does and also seems to have been very successful in life because of it. I had to laugh. All of the people I know who are successful reptile breeders are EXTREMELY detail oriented. BTW, I consider myself to be a successful reptile breeder. I just do not consider money to be the ultimate measure of success. I am always greatly impressed with people who have a devotion to breeding animals which are difficult and have zero potential for financial gain. So what am I saying? If someone is not extremely detail oriented I think they will have a hard time producing many baby snakes.
Good luck,
Jeff

>>Hi, I am trying to put together the money to make my snake breeding room. I love snakes and now I want to make my dream of being a breeder come true. I quit my job (I hated it anyway) and took a job as a vet assistant, so I can make him teach me genetics beyond the basics I learned in school. I bought my first snakes for breeding instead of snakes for pets from hummel recently. And I am trying to figure out how I can join the professional breeders. I am looking for the best books on snake breeding and genetics. (any suggestions?) and I am trying to design a layout and find a affordable and workable rack system. I will be tiling and epoxy painting an entire room and humidity controlling the whole thing, so my cages can be wire or mesh. I found some great PID controllers that will control and monitor temp and humidity and call my cell phone is anything breaks. I will only be breeding rainbows, and as soon as I have a functioning and reliable climate controlled breeding room, I want to take out a loan for an albino rainbow, because I can see that morphs are where the money is at(I want to be able to make enough money at this to support myself and my business) and it seems that the albino gene is the key to all the new morphs. But I am having one hell of a time finding cheap mesh cages, and industrial food-service racks. (it seems like this is a good combo) I can't make my own melamine or laminate racks cuz I don't have the construction skills. Do you guys have any advice or product suggestions for someone who wants to join you guys? Any book suggestions? any pictures of your facilities? (saw rainbowsrus's but I can't do that cuz I just don't have the carpentry skills, and I am hesitant to hire a carpenter cuz they will cost an arm and a leg)
>>-----
>>-Jasmine
>>
>>1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
>>(Mercutio and Kajika)

.
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-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

I like the article, and I agree with much of it.
I also agree with your thoughts on the Albino Colombian.
The babie CRB’s are quite stunning, But I would rather have a solid down payment on a home right now. I can make money on Stocks, Mutual Funds, and Snakes, BUT in a broad market decline...I can only live in a house.

And with the way the real-estate market is going, home prices may become more affordable (reasonable) over the next several months as well for much of the same rational as the tulip story.

...BUT AT THE SAME TIME....I have never seen two neighboring homes produce a backyard full of baby houses which can grow up to be quite profitable. I took money out of mutual funds in late 1999 right before a big market decline and I bought some snakes. When I was doing taxes last year I realized that the snake investments over the previous seven years had outpaced my best mutual fund investments by at least 20 fold. …BUT mutual funds require much less care, they don’t poop (unless you are talking about dividends), they are more diversified, have broader market appeal and are better able to adapt to political, social, and global changes.

I think the name of the game in breeding animals, and playing the stock market, and in real estate, and in almost everything is DIVERSITY…(however girlfriends have always disliked this view……j/k)
BHH
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Bryan Hummel
www.rainbowboas.com

Thank You guys for taking the time to give me such good and thorough advice. I copied ALL your responses to a word document, and next I will make little bullets of all your points and keep that handy while I write a business plan. It seems like new expensive morphs are just bad news, and like if I want to make any money I have to find a way to sell these guys retail. and that means compiling all of Jeff's awesome care sheets into something easy for the average person to understand and meet all the requirements. I will have to have my target market be people who want pets and not breeders or snake people, cuz then my competition is pet stores(rip off artists) and then I can sell for retail price. but then the problem is reaching enough people to sell 300 babies a year. I will have to think about that one. I still feel optimistic about this though.
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-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

Jasmine,
...I think all of our posts about risks and expenses and marketing problems have ultimately pointed you in the wrong direction. If someone really wants to make a decent living in the reptile breeding business then morphs are probably the best way to go. If you spend the time and effort to build up a collection of normal BRBs that will generate $30,000 in sales per year and you have $10,000 in annual expenses then all you have done is invested money and time and hard work to promote yourself into a hard work VERY low paying job. Congratulations to everyone who has made that bad life decision. I think a far better approach is to get the education and training to make $75,000 or more a year in a real job and then spend as much or as little time and money as you want breeding the reptiles that you like. If on the other hand you just have to make your living breeding reptiles then you will probably have to take the risk and spend the bigger money building a morph breeding business.
Jeff

>>Thank You guys for taking the time to give me such good and thorough advice. I copied ALL your responses to a word document, and next I will make little bullets of all your points and keep that handy while I write a business plan. It seems like new expensive morphs are just bad news, and like if I want to make any money I have to find a way to sell these guys retail. and that means compiling all of Jeff's awesome care sheets into something easy for the average person to understand and meet all the requirements. I will have to have my target market be people who want pets and not breeders or snake people, cuz then my competition is pet stores(rip off artists) and then I can sell for retail price. but then the problem is reaching enough people to sell 300 babies a year. I will have to think about that one. I still feel optimistic about this though.
>>-----
>>-Jasmine
>>
>>1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
>>(Mercutio and Kajika)

ouch. I make 12000 a year now, so 20000 seems like a huge upgrade. but now I feel all disheartened, maybe I can make it work. but everything you guys have told me seems to be warning against buying into whatever the latest morph happens to be.
-----
-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

missing the point.

To be successful overall in breeding reptiles, you'd have to diversify. Would be very hard to produce enough normal BRB's to make a living from it And if you were able to produce that many, then you'd have a harder time selling them all. IMO to ultimately be successful, you should offer various animals at various price points from $100 average looking BRB's to drop dead gorgeous hypo BRB's from outstanding breeders. Ultimately this is a building process. Starting out with a few breeders, you can produce and sell babies, from that income and other funds you wish to add, you can get more animals and more caging etc. Then the following year do the same thing. As time goes by, those earlier babies you bought will grow up and join the ranks of your breeders.

This really is NOT something you can simply buy into. No matter how you decide to go, there will always be a time lag between acquiring new animals and getting any babies from them.

To use my "36" female BRB's as an example, for 2005 breeding season (babies born in 2005) I had 7 females old enough to breed. Had the same number the following season. This current season I now have 9. Next season there will be 19 old enough to breed (will be giving some number the year off to rest). In the 2009 season I will have 24 females old enough to breed again some will be given the year off to rest. Finally, in 2010 all the females I now have will be old enough to breed. Notice, I say old enough, some may very well not be mature or large enough to breed. Can only decide that when the time comes.

Of course, the number of and specific females I do have will be ever changing as I acquire more through breeding and purchases and even as I decide to part with some......

The point being what you acquire today is three years out at best to start breeding and paying back into the business. So, no matter what, you have to keep the "day job" until such time as the "reptile job" has grown enough to support not only itself but you as well. The early years WILL be a drain on your resources. The amount of drain inversely proportional to the speed you build up the business. Build it fast and the drain will be high, build it slow and the drain would be much lower.

$12,000 a year, for example, that would barely get a hypo project started with one male hypo and a few het females along with caging/thermostat(s) food and bedding for the group.

Nobody here is saying you couldn't make a living breeding, BUT, you will have to invest a few years (probably more like 5 or 10) before you'd be able to go full time!

More feasible is to have the steady income from a day job and have the reptiles as a hobby that not only pays for itself, but pays for lots of extras!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

.. seeking advice from this newsgroup. The fact that you did
shows much more smarts than a lot of people who start businesses... and then go bankrupt. I can't really add to anything Jeff and Dave said, except to emphasize once again that with bigger rewards (ie, selling high-end morphs) comes bigger risks (ie, loss of most income by not being able to breed the morphs, or having one of them die.) So while Jeff
is probably correct you'd have a better chance making more
money with morphs, you'd also have a better chance of *losing*
a lot more money. It's the old risk vs. reward tradeoff.

Actually, one more suggestion, then I'll shut up. I would recommend you follow through with the business plan. I guarantee that if you write it objectively, you won't like the final financial numbers... but the exercise could be invaluable for the future.

Do you live near any established breeders? Maybe you could partner up with a breeder who is running out of space and could use your help? That might allow you to gain some breeding
experience without killing your savings account and credit. Just a thought of the top of my head.

Good luck with everything,
Ed

>>missing the point.
>>
>>To be successful overall in breeding reptiles, you'd have to diversify. Would be very hard to produce enough normal BRB's to make a living from it And if you were able to produce that many, then you'd have a harder time selling them all. IMO to ultimately be successful, you should offer various animals at various price points from $100 average looking BRB's to drop dead gorgeous hypo BRB's from outstanding breeders. Ultimately this is a building process. Starting out with a few breeders, you can produce and sell babies, from that income and other funds you wish to add, you can get more animals and more caging etc. Then the following year do the same thing. As time goes by, those earlier babies you bought will grow up and join the ranks of your breeders.
>>
>>This really is NOT something you can simply buy into. No matter how you decide to go, there will always be a time lag between acquiring new animals and getting any babies from them.
>>
>>To use my "36" female BRB's as an example, for 2005 breeding season (babies born in 2005) I had 7 females old enough to breed. Had the same number the following season. This current season I now have 9. Next season there will be 19 old enough to breed (will be giving some number the year off to rest). In the 2009 season I will have 24 females old enough to breed again some will be given the year off to rest. Finally, in 2010 all the females I now have will be old enough to breed. Notice, I say old enough, some may very well not be mature or large enough to breed. Can only decide that when the time comes.
>>
>>Of course, the number of and specific females I do have will be ever changing as I acquire more through breeding and purchases and even as I decide to part with some......
>>
>>The point being what you acquire today is three years out at best to start breeding and paying back into the business. So, no matter what, you have to keep the "day job" until such time as the "reptile job" has grown enough to support not only itself but you as well. The early years WILL be a drain on your resources. The amount of drain inversely proportional to the speed you build up the business. Build it fast and the drain will be high, build it slow and the drain would be much lower.
>>
>>$12,000 a year, for example, that would barely get a hypo project started with one male hypo and a few het females along with caging/thermostat(s) food and bedding for the group.
>>
>>Nobody here is saying you couldn't make a living breeding, BUT, you will have to invest a few years (probably more like 5 or 10) before you'd be able to go full time!
>>
>>More feasible is to have the steady income from a day job and have the reptiles as a hobby that not only pays for itself, but pays for lots of extras!!
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>
>>Dave Colling
>>
>>www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com
>>
>>
>>
>>0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
>>0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)
>>
>>LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
>>24.36 BRB
>>19.19 BCI
>>And those are only the breeders
>>
>>lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

that is a great idea. I wish I was doing the dirty jobs for some big breeder, gain some job-related experience. If I wasn't so attached to my boyfriend that's where I would be right now. And I am actually still considering it. Give me a little while to make a business plan, and then I will post it here. I love how many responses I have gotten, you guys are so helpful. If I ever make it big I will have to send each one of you a box of chocolates or a morph baby or both. I am determined to go to Daytona next year, so I can't wait to meet you all.
-----
-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

my chocolates to be in a seperate box?

Love my snakes but the thought of chocolates in the warr snake box with whatever the snake decides to do not so appealing!!
-----
Thanks,

Dave Colling

www.rainbows-r-us-reptiles.com

0.1 Wife (WC and still very fiesty)
0.2 kids (CBB, a big part of our selective breeding program)

LOL, to many snakes to list, last count:
24.36 BRB
19.19 BCI
And those are only the breeders

lots.lots.lots feeder mice and rats

no no it's snake chocolate! made with real mice! (kinda an inside joke, my mom's name is mouse and she is a chocolatier, so I am always requesting mouse chocolates for my snakes. especially cuz once I decided to store all my frozen mice in her nice freezer with all the chocolates that were being cooled prior to shipping, she lost a lot of inventory cuz the cooler decided to break and the chocolates would have been fine if my mice hadn't dethawed and made everything mouse flavored. oops.) it's a lot funnier now.
-----
-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

That is funny. I bet she wasn't happy at the time though.
The first time I had ordered frozen rats I too stored them in my parents freezer. The next day my step dad came to see me and handed me a reciept for a big chest freezer. Apperantly he took one look in his and decided that he would by me a present. All I had to do was go pick it up.
Milo

nice. My parents told me (very nicely) that it was time for me to find my own apartment. (I was 17 at the time, but I had a great job as a cook in a sushi restraunt so I afforded it easily.)

>>That is funny. I bet she wasn't happy at the time though.
>>The first time I had ordered frozen rats I too stored them in my parents freezer. The next day my step dad came to see me and handed me a reciept for a big chest freezer. Apperantly he took one look in his and decided that he would by me a present. All I had to do was go pick it up.
>>Milo
-----
-Jasmine

1.4 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
1.0 Peruvian Rainbow Boa

You got a deal. In 10 years (when you hit it big), my youngest
will be off to college, so I may have more space than the
5' x 5' closet that I have now!

Thanks,
Ed

>>that is a great idea. I wish I was doing the dirty jobs for some big breeder, gain some job-related experience. If I wasn't so attached to my boyfriend that's where I would be right now. And I am actually still considering it. Give me a little while to make a business plan, and then I will post it here. I love how many responses I have gotten, you guys are so helpful. If I ever make it big I will have to send each one of you a box of chocolates or a morph baby or both. I am determined to go to Daytona next year, so I can't wait to meet you all.
>>-----
>>-Jasmine
>>
>>1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
>>(Mercutio and Kajika)

I understand that it will take years for my business to grow into a living. but I don't agree with looking at it as a hobby. If I treat it like a hobby instead of a business I will make different decisions. If I was going to do this as a hobby I would spend the money to make all my cages into self-sustaining vivariums, but instead I am looking for options that will maximize snake health while minimizing cost. I am still in the researching and planning stage. So we will see where this goes, but I am young, so if my business takes 10 years to take off I will have my own successful business by the time I am 28 and that's pretty good. I don't mind not having any money, I mean I have no problem shopping at the thrift store for everything. And if it never takes off, then I will just have to use it the way you guys do, and just use it to help me choose what day job I get. But I am determined to have a good try at making this a successful business.
-----
-Jasmine

1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
(Mercutio and Kajika)

NP
-----
Bryan Hummel
www.rainbowboas.com

and power is often money....and vice versa.
-----
Bryan Hummel
www.rainbowboas.com

>>Hi, I am trying to put together the money to make my snake breeding room. I love snakes and now I want to make my dream of being a breeder come true. I quit my job (I hated it anyway) and took a job as a vet assistant, so I can make him teach me genetics beyond the basics I learned in school. I bought my first snakes for breeding instead of snakes for pets from hummel recently. And I am trying to figure out how I can join the professional breeders. I am looking for the best books on snake breeding and genetics. (any suggestions?) and I am trying to design a layout and find a affordable and workable rack system. I will be tiling and epoxy painting an entire room and humidity controlling the whole thing, so my cages can be wire or mesh. I found some great PID controllers that will control and monitor temp and humidity and call my cell phone is anything breaks. I will only be breeding rainbows, and as soon as I have a functioning and reliable climate controlled breeding room, I want to take out a loan for an albino rainbow, because I can see that morphs are where the money is at(I want to be able to make enough money at this to support myself and my business) and it seems that the albino gene is the key to all the new morphs. But I am having one hell of a time finding cheap mesh cages, and industrial food-service racks. (it seems like this is a good combo) I can't make my own melamine or laminate racks cuz I don't have the construction skills. Do you guys have any advice or product suggestions for someone who wants to join you guys? Any book suggestions? any pictures of your facilities? (saw rainbowsrus's but I can't do that cuz I just don't have the carpentry skills, and I am hesitant to hire a carpenter cuz they will cost an arm and a leg)
>>-----
>>-Jasmine
>>
>>1.1 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
>>(Mercutio and Kajika)

First let me say good read so far with all the useful info. Second while I am not quitting my day job I am starting my “breeding project” as well. It looks like you already know the snake you are working with, I have read that “love the animal you breed and money will follow”, that makes sense to me.

I don’t think you are saving or will save any money by creating the environment in the snake room, I say this because snakes are like people in that not every snake likes the same temperature, also you cant create a heat gradient and you cant provide higher humidity for neonates or a snake in the blue or even a sick snake. Also you wont save any money in the long run because of the money you spend on heating the room it would have to be professionally built to keep heating costs low and to keep it at the right temp for a BRB, not to mention humidity and of course you. You will be spending lots of time in this room and if it was me I know I would be hot. So the long and short of it is to buy professionally built cages and thermostats. I am fairly certain you will have much better success breeding in small cage environments (more easily controlled) then you will with a heated room.

As for turning this hobby into a business with no prior breeding experience I say good luck, I wouldn’t quit your job and start out small, make enough money to buy your own stock (or grow) and go from there. I can only hope that in 5 years time I can start paying for my hobby and brining in so extra cash.
Good luck!
-----
Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

First, what a fantastic discussion. This is the kind of thread that really defines our forum.

I can't resist, so here's my .02.

I have never considered quitting my teaching job to take up snakes full time. I have thought about reducing my teaching hours but this thought was fleeting.

I work with these animals because it is my passion. It dawned on me that If I were to turn this into a career, it would be work. I would depend on the animals to feed myself and that could lead to stress. The way it is now, I really don't care. If they breed, that feels great and I love the acknowlegement I get for producing beautiful animals. It's fun. I don't have to stress because I have a 9 to 5 (actually it's more like 6 to 6, but oh well) to take care of the bills.

I don't want to crush your dream if it really is to become a mega reptile breeder. If that's what you want - go for it. And start with a hypo project. But, just as much satisfaction (maybe more) can be gained from working with these animals for the sheer joy of working with them. I once heard that successful ventures are rarely born out of the desire to make money. The money is only incidental. The people behind the successful ventures do what they do because it's what they're good at or it's what they believe in.

This might sound like 10lbs. of sh!t in a 5lb. bag coming from a guy who sells snakes for what I do but the reality is that even though I've done O.K. with my hypos, I'm really only slightly ahead. The costs involved in this hobby such as feeding, shipping, electricity, cages and supplies, advertising, tables at shows, and hotels when doing shows have kept my net profits modest.

There really is no comparison to education and a stable career. Whatever you decide to do, I'd still like to say what's up at some show sometime and bullsh!t about snakes. Best of luck with your decision!
-----
Mike Lockwood
www.tooscaley.com

like 10 lbs. in a 4 lb. baglol oh and best of luck with the new litter
Bob

...making a buisness of animal husbandry. If you really want to make it a minimal risk and profitable go then get experience first.

I would highly suggest starting any of your potential projects with animals that either you have breeding experience or which are not overly expensive. This way you can know you have the knowledge/skill to breed the species before you invest huge chunks of capitol. On the upsode it will minimize your finacial risk. On the downside it will be slightly slower then what is theoretically possible. But it sure is a lot more reliable. If you do it this way and diversify your projects then you should at least be able to in general keep your buisness overall out of the red. And if your very successful with it then turn a tidy profit.

Another key thing is the timing of getting in on the morphs/species and whether you buy het's or hom's for your breeders. If you get het's early on in a morph project then you can get in for relatively little money and yet be positioned to be close to the forefront of that morph market. If you successfully keep and breed the het's then you can turn a tidy profit and if not it is only a minimal loss.

Best example of this in my own collection is my triple het Trans Pecos Rat Snakes which I got last year. This year Craig Trumbower produced the first snow TPRS which helped drive the prices up as it proved the traits compatible/non-detrimental. In the 10 months or so that I've had them the price of hatchling pairs of triple het's has virtually tripled. As a result once my pair is old enough to breed I will potentially, if I get lucky on the genetic odds, turn a net profit off the first clutch. However even if I never get any offspring from them I am only out about $1000 and feeding costs.

Essentially I would encourage you to start with a quality but inexpensive pair/trio of any species you work with for the first time. If all goes well then jump into the more high end morph market in the species and you can use that first pair/trio to outcross your morph lines.

In addition if you diversify your breeding projects, as others have suggested, then you can stagger them so you are not waiting or wasting time while they get to breeding age. Just pick a different species/project each year and by the time you have started 3 (for most species) your first ones will be ready to breed. If you keep a similar cycle up then you will always have projects that are producing/coming to fruition each year while at the same time begining new ones. Also on the sales note if you have a very diverse stock of species then you will probably find it easier to sell a higher percentage of the offspring at retail prices.

Just some suggestions from what I have observed of animal husbandry over the years and by no means gospel.

Sean.

You definatly had some good points in there. And that is actually what I am doing, you guys convinced me to stay away from morphs for the time being. I bought a bottom of the litter male from Jeff a year ago and a crappy coloration 2 year old female at the reptile show in Denver a year ago. She is still a little small so I will breed them next year. All my nice new brazilian females and peruvian male from hummel are brand new, so I can't even think about breeding them yet. And about the diversity, I spent a few hours last night looking at what other snakes I would be interested in breeding, I was even thinking about offering a few frogs as well: red eyes and poison darts, cuz I love making vivariums anyways. but the frog thing will have to be a small thing cuz vivariums just kill me with the amount of money that has to go into those damn things! about the job, it's not like I quit a profession or anything. I am 18, I just quit one dead end job and decided to take another, but this time working for a vet. About schooling, I made it through high-school, barely. Graduating was the best thing to happen to me in a long time. I live in a small town where I am the local freak (having a pet snake, wanting to breed snakes, not drinking etc.), and you know how nice and respectful kids can be (all their parents are so nice, I don't know where they all got it). I am not anxious to repeat the experience. Maybe I will feel different in a few years, but I can't promise anything. If anything I want to save a little money and go live in a town on the outskirts of the Amazon for a little while.

>>...making a buisness of animal husbandry. If you really want to make it a minimal risk and profitable go then get experience first.
>>
>>I would highly suggest starting any of your potential projects with animals that either you have breeding experience or which are not overly expensive. This way you can know you have the knowledge/skill to breed the species before you invest huge chunks of capitol. On the upsode it will minimize your finacial risk. On the downside it will be slightly slower then what is theoretically possible. But it sure is a lot more reliable. If you do it this way and diversify your projects then you should at least be able to in general keep your buisness overall out of the red. And if your very successful with it then turn a tidy profit.
>>
>>Another key thing is the timing of getting in on the morphs/species and whether you buy het's or hom's for your breeders. If you get het's early on in a morph project then you can get in for relatively little money and yet be positioned to be close to the forefront of that morph market. If you successfully keep and breed the het's then you can turn a tidy profit and if not it is only a minimal loss.
>>
>>Best example of this in my own collection is my triple het Trans Pecos Rat Snakes which I got last year. This year Craig Trumbower produced the first snow TPRS which helped drive the prices up as it proved the traits compatible/non-detrimental. In the 10 months or so that I've had them the price of hatchling pairs of triple het's has virtually tripled. As a result once my pair is old enough to breed I will potentially, if I get lucky on the genetic odds, turn a net profit off the first clutch. However even if I never get any offspring from them I am only out about $1000 and feeding costs.
>>
>>Essentially I would encourage you to start with a quality but inexpensive pair/trio of any species you work with for the first time. If all goes well then jump into the more high end morph market in the species and you can use that first pair/trio to outcross your morph lines.
>>
>>In addition if you diversify your breeding projects, as others have suggested, then you can stagger them so you are not waiting or wasting time while they get to breeding age. Just pick a different species/project each year and by the time you have started 3 (for most species) your first ones will be ready to breed. If you keep a similar cycle up then you will always have projects that are producing/coming to fruition each year while at the same time begining new ones. Also on the sales note if you have a very diverse stock of species then you will probably find it easier to sell a higher percentage of the offspring at retail prices.
>>
>>Just some suggestions from what I have observed of animal husbandry over the years and by no means gospel.
>>
>>Sean.
-----
-Jasmine

1.4 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
1.0 Peruvian Rainbow Boa

If you go with frog's then beware of ants.

I don't have experience with frogs but I have talked to a few poison dart frog breeders and they had horror stories of losing numerous entire enclosures of breeders to ants. Apparently poison dart frogs are like ant candy and if they find em and can get in they will. Don't know if this is true of all the tropical frogs or not but definitely a reason to keep on guard against ants if you start raising poison darts.

Sean.

PS: best of wishes with your buisness project. Want to see you succeed just don't want to see you get blindsided.

yikes! I thought of dart frogs cuz my boyfriend keeps them, and even though they don't take in a much money as snakes, I still think they are damn cute. We have never had problems with ants, as there is an almost non-existant bug population in Ouray CO, but I will keep an eye out for them anyway.

>>If you go with frog's then beware of ants.
>>
>>I don't have experience with frogs but I have talked to a few poison dart frog breeders and they had horror stories of losing numerous entire enclosures of breeders to ants. Apparently poison dart frogs are like ant candy and if they find em and can get in they will. Don't know if this is true of all the tropical frogs or not but definitely a reason to keep on guard against ants if you start raising poison darts.
>>
>>Sean.
>>
>>PS: best of wishes with your buisness project. Want to see you succeed just don't want to see you get blindsided.
-----
-Jasmine

1.4 Brazilian Rainbow Boas
1.0 Peruvian Rainbow Boa

LOL yeah they are damn cute.

I was surprised also when I heard about the ant thing but I have heard it from several poison dart breeders so I'm pretty sure it's true. Glad to hear he hasn't had problems with em yet.

Sean.