Reptile & Amphibian Forums

what kind of training, if any, did you guys do before getting your own venomous?

i want to be a herpetologist, and i will most likely be working with these animals, and i would like to keep some in my own private collection.

what do you guys recommend for first-time vens?
(i dont plan on keeping them for a few years at least)

finally, does anyone know any big time venomous keepers in northwestern PA that may let me do some shadowing/training?

i have gotten some offers from people on the other side of the state, but no luck there...thats a 5 - 7 hour drive...and not realistic for a high-school student.

thanks
jessica
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0.1.0 Hogg Island Boa
0.1.0 Albino Columbian Boa
1.0.0 Carpet Python
0.0.1 Red Albino Cornsnake
0.0.1 Aberrant California Kingsnake
1.0.0 Greek Tortoise
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 ?????? Leopard Gecko
1.0.0 Leopard Toad
2.2.0 Dogs
1.1.0 Cats
1.0.0 Rabbit
1.0.0 Gerbil
....................................

Shed Your Fears!
http://www.freewebs.com/ShedYourFears

most people will recommend starting out with something like a copperhead, which is good advice for the most part. it IS a hot snake and there really is no substitute. personally, i just jumped into it with the common sense i was born with and the experience with non-venomous snakes that i had acquired over the years and never had a problem. i purchased a good hook, prepared for emergency if i was bitten, had the proper cage setup and always had a plan b if the snake didn't cooperate. my personal opinion is that training is more for the mind than the body. physically, you can handle it or you can't, and handling someone else's hots is a great way to start because if you decide it's not for you, then no harm done. an accident can happen just as quickly, so it's really up to what the person in question feels they are up for. i firmly believe that some people are just naturally more capable and others will never be ready. i've always avoided complacency and never panicked when things DID get out of control a bit, and i guess i've been a bit lucky.

I can't tell you anything on hot keepers in PA. But some commonly kept first time hots are American Copperheads, Pigmy Rattlesnakes, Mangrove Snakes, and False Water Cobras. Keep in mind while any of those snakes are relatively more "safe" than other hots they are still HOT and the proper precautions should be implemented.

Cheers.

That's a loaded question. Since you are still a high school student, and, if you are planning on going to college, I wouldn't even consider keeping any venomous species until you are done with school. If you are living at home, which I am assuming you are, or, plan on living at home, I wouldn't own a venomous herp as other folks sharing your space will either not have the same skill level as you (in a worse case scenario) or share the same passion as you (and, it wouldn't be fair to subject them to stress and/or potential danger in the event of an escape or some other freak accident. Additionally, if you are a normal high school/college kid that's strapped for cash, the expense of owning your own supply of A/V (which is your responsibility, not the hospital's or the nearest zoo) will costs you in the thousands that will need to be replenished every 30 months of so.

So, with all that being said, if you are just looking for information and not a sermon, no venomous snake makes a good "first time hot" as any venomous snake does have the potential to kill you. Yes, copperheads are oftentimes mentioned but the bite of one can be absolutely horrific and the loss of a limb is a real possibility. I am biased towards rattlers and feel that they are, for the most part, fairly easy to manage and if I had to pick one group, rattlers would be my first choice (both in behavior, natural history, exhibit potential and ease in management). A pygmy, desert or western massasauga, banded rock would all make fine choices once you have your own place, the experience and the financial resources to own one (there are many other small to medium species that do equally well). Make sure you have a suitable hook, a pro bagger or something similar, well constructed shift or transport box, shields, a scoop, gentle giant tongs and you'll be ready. Most importantly, however, is trying to find a good mentor to show you the ropes and be mature enough to take constructive criticism. You can never be over prepared when it comes to working with hots.

Hope this helps.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>what kind of training, if any, did you guys do before getting your own venomous?
>>
>>i want to be a herpetologist, and i will most likely be working with these animals, and i would like to keep some in my own private collection.
>>
>>what do you guys recommend for first-time vens?
>>(i dont plan on keeping them for a few years at least)
>>
>>finally, does anyone know any big time venomous keepers in northwestern PA that may let me do some shadowing/training?
>>
>>i have gotten some offers from people on the other side of the state, but no luck there...thats a 5 - 7 hour drive...and not realistic for a high-school student.
>>
>>thanks
>>jessica
>>-----
>>0.1.0 Hogg Island Boa
>>0.1.0 Albino Columbian Boa
>>1.0.0 Carpet Python
>>0.0.1 Red Albino Cornsnake
>>0.0.1 Aberrant California Kingsnake
>>1.0.0 Greek Tortoise
>>1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko
>>0.0.1 ?????? Leopard Gecko
>>1.0.0 Leopard Toad
>>2.2.0 Dogs
>>1.1.0 Cats
>>1.0.0 Rabbit
>>1.0.0 Gerbil
>>....................................
>>
>>Shed Your Fears!
>>http://www.freewebs.com/ShedYourFears
-----
Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

thanks for all the info...it is really helpful.

where/ how hard is it to get anti-venin?

i absolutely believe that hot keepers should have their own AV.
-----
0.1.0 Hogg Island Boa
0.1.0 Albino Columbian Boa
1.0.0 Carpet Python
0.0.1 Red Albino Cornsnake
0.0.1 Aberrant California Kingsnake
1.0.0 Greek Tortoise
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 ?????? Leopard Gecko
1.0.0 Leopard Toad
2.2.0 Dogs
1.1.0 Cats
1.0.0 Rabbit
1.0.0 Gerbil
....................................

Shed Your Fears!
http://www.freewebs.com/ShedYourFears

The price is what stands in a lot of people's way. Ironically, exotic A/V can be had cheaper than what is necessary for native US species. CroFab is still in the $2000 per kit (2 vials) and a big eastern diamondback bite could require 30 vials, so just for the A/V you're looking at $30,000. Some keep a few vials (starter dose of sorts) and some keep enough for the worst case scenarios, but MOST who keep A/V end up losing tons of money because of the shelf-life factor. After a couple to three years, most A/V will weaken so that those 30 vials may only be equal to 10-20 vials and then you need another $10,000 just to counter a bad bite.

Then, you have the problem of a lot of hospitals refusing to use your A/V. Around here, they simply won't do it for fear of a lawsuit. There are tons of factors.

I just avoid being bitten

interesting... i never realized anti-venin was so expensive!

what would happen if you were bitten by an exotic venomous animal? can hospitals get anti-venin for that?

are there specific AV's for each kind of snake, or just for neurotoxins, etc?

i suppose in any case not getting bit is the best thing to do.

but then again, anything can happen.

if/ when i do have venomous, i plan on handling them with the utmost caution.

i think i'll start off with a copperhead or a rattler...and then maybe work my way up to gaboons/rhinos, etc...

i never plan on having mambas, taipans, or anything like that...

maybe someday i'd like to have a cobra, but not a spitter.

what is the deal with false water cobras, mangroves, etc?

i know they are rear-fanged, but how dangerous are they to humans? what is the bite like as far as pain? can they cause fatalities?

some people that have mangroves and FWCs say they are no big deal, and others say you have to be extremely cautious just as with front fanged vens...

would it be wise to choose a rear-fanged BEFORE getting a front fanged as far as practice with careful handling, etc?
-----
0.1.0 Hogg Island Boa
0.1.0 Albino Columbian Boa
1.0.0 Carpet Python
0.0.1 Red Albino Cornsnake
0.0.1 Aberrant California Kingsnake
1.0.0 Greek Tortoise
1.0.0 Normal Leopard Gecko
0.0.1 ?????? Leopard Gecko
1.0.0 Leopard Toad
2.2.0 Dogs
1.1.0 Cats
1.0.0 Rabbit
1.0.0 Gerbil
....................................

Shed Your Fears!
http://www.freewebs.com/ShedYourFears

Rob is right on here...It's best to find someone that is willing to "show you the ropes" of ven keeping before getting any vens of your own...

All North American pit viper bites are treated with CroFab, and yes hospitals (especially in areas of relatively high snakebite occurrence) either have it on hand or can get it. However, not every bite requires the use of it, and many doctors are woefully ignorant when it comes to properly treating a snakebite...(due in large part to snakebite being a rare occurrence). It IS expensive, and I've heard the figure of $10-20,000.00 being thrown around as the overall cost for an "average" NA pitviper bite that requires AV. I'm not sure how accurate this number is, but a bite IS going to be expensive any way you cut it (pun intended...don't do this btw).

Also, keep in mind that some rattlesnake bites don't respond very well to CroFab (C. molossus and C. horridus come to mind)...Consequently, bites from these animals may require more AV to neutralize the effects of the venom.

As far as B. dendrophila and H. gigas being good "prep" snakes, I will say that nothing beats experience with the "real" thing. IMO all rear fangs commonly available in the hobby must be treated as venomous creatures...because they are. While fatalities may be rare or unheard of with regard to most rear fangs, they DO have venom and there is always the possibility of a severe reaction from a bite.

From a maintainence standpoint, I've kept both B. dendrophila and H. gigas and can tell you that H. gigas is the easier captive. They usually have a great feeding response and are available captive bred. On the other hand, B. dendrophila is usually available as wc, and tends to be a nervous snake in captivity (at least initially). In my experience, feeding is hit or miss with these guys, and none would eat in my presence. I'm not saying that they're not rewarding captives...they're just a bit more work than a "beginning ven keeper" is likely to be comfortable with.

I know I've gone on for too long here, but I'll sum it up by saying this: Get first hand experience working with those species you're interested in by mentoring with an experienced, responsible keeper. If your interests are with the rear-fangs, that's great...they are awesome animals...but it's better to get experience with the species you want to keep rather than trying to keep rear-fangs and "stepping up" to front fanged vens later...because there really is no substitute for getting real experience with the "real" thing.

-AzAtrox

Hi!
I've been following this forum for a while, and figure you're probably one of the best guys to ask, since you run a wildlife center.
Do you have any recommendations for how to find a venemous keeper in your area, and how to go about asking "Hey, can you show me how to handle your potentially deadly animals, I pinky promise not to get bit"? I'm a college student on the west coast (working on a degree in Animal Behaviors) and would not like to own any hots at this time (for reasons exactly like you just stated) but I would like to work with them in the future, and want to start getting experience under my belt now.
I've tried checking out the nearest zoo (San Diego Zoo/Wild Animal Park) but without a bachelor's degree there's not much I can do, even if I just wanted an internship. My nearest herp shop sells mangroves, but they're not labelled as being venemous (which I know they are) and none of the employees there keep hots.
I've moved rattlesnakes around and off my family's property, but I'd like some "real" experience and just don't know where else to look. Do you have any suggestions?

Thanks!

~jenny
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"Polysyllabism in no way insures that what you're saying is actually worth being heard." - Blake (an e-friend of mine)

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