Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Since there are already so many posts on this topic, I thought I'd start fresh and give everyone a little more info about snake pedigrees.

I have a feeling that most folks have a distorted idea of what a pedigree for snakes really means. With crossing of animals, it can be difficult to identify what is what. Some agree and some disagree with crossing and hybridizing, but let's face it.....it's not going away. If anything, it's becoming more common year after year and it's been going on since the 70's....maybe even before that. Keeping things pure and keeping pedigrees are two entirely different things.

When a chondro keeper adds to a pedigree, history is the most important key to the information. It's not about what gene this animal has and that animal has. It's about where the parental stock comes from with each generation. Knowing if an animal comes from WC stock, Zoo stock, or from an individual is what is key. Added genes only add important information, but it's really all about knowing where the animals come from. It has nothing to do with recessives, unless it's a cross and you want pure animals.

Here are examples of a lineage charts created by Terry Philip of Chondros by Design.

I hope this helps explain a little better than I just did. If all keepers designate a name, or ID# to every animal produced, it will make things a lot easier to keep track of. As long as everyone makes the commitment and follows through, it can be done.

Just an example, here are some animals I produced with assigned ID#s.

BO.06.01
Translation = BO(Brandon Osborne).06(2006).01(First green tree produced in 2006)

BO.06.02 = BO(Brandon Osborne0.06(2006).02(second green tree produced in 2006)

BO.06.08 = BO(Brandon Osborne).06(2006).08(eighth green tree produced in 2006)

BO.05.13 = BO(Brandon Osborne).05(2005).13(thirteenth green tree produced in 2005)

It could even be broken down more by adding a clutch number behind the year or name, such as....BO.06-2.01 (Brandon Osborne).(2006)-(clutch #2).(animal #1) and so on. To differentiate between species or sub-species you could use BO-HM.07-3.01 (Brandon Osborne)-(Honduran Milksnake).(2007)-(clutch #3).(animal #1).

Again, I hope this helps explain things a little better....I'm sure someone else can do much better than I just did. It was a rush job and if anyone has any questions just ask.

Enjoy and bicker at will!
Brandon Osborne

-----
www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

Are you using a light box to photo?

And on topic:

I love it.

Too bad we have reached a point now that so many kings and corns are mutts - and that no one has any idea what they are because they were bought from dishonest dealers / breeders.

And I agree with you 100% - "pure" isn't the right word to use. We are witnessing the decline of the king / corn hobby because no one will soon know what they have or what it will produce.

It'll be like mice in the pets store - you like the white one? Thats $1.25. You like the brown one? Thats $1.25, etc., etc.

Yes, I used a homemade light box. GE Reveal bulbs and Sunlight full spectrum florescents.

I think it all boils down to trust. There are lots of guys that produce integrades, hybrids, and pure stock. Most trustworthy people are going to label them as such. Sometimes it can be confusing, but as long as everyone involved in such transactions are aware, it shouldn't be a problem.

Here is one of my "pure" line brooksi. This is a 4th generation breeding of this bloodline. They still remain white and are "normal" brooksi.
2001 White phase.

Brandon Osborne
-----
www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

The Love use a letter and a number for every snake produced and all can be traced back to the origins. Thats how the Peanut Butter strian got started. The Loves didn't beleive they had produced a new strain and when presnted with the facts they declined to beleive it was nothing more than a hypo that someone popped out of their stock. So the pesron who founed the PB's bought up all the babies in the following years that were siblings to the original hets to the grandparents. Anyone could have picked up peanut Butter hets from the loves for $15-$20. All you needed was the corelating numbers and letter which traced back to two w/c snakes found by G Mikinnis ..
-----
"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

That's how it all starts. If everyone else continues to do so, there would be no question as to the lineage of animals, and what is pure or what is crossed.....unless people made up lineage charts, and I really don't think people care much about making up false charts. The people that have questionable animals are usually dealers that broker bulk animals. They sell what they are told the animals are, or in some cases, they label animals by what is popular at the moment. Rainer, I'm sure you've seen this since you introduced the PBs. Buy from who you trust and you shouldn't have any problems.

Brandon Osborne
-----
www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

That is very cool!

something i will use for my crosses AND "pure" breeding (by pure i mean breeding the same subspecies)

i use to request pix of parents when i purchased snakes (for my records) and not many "breeders" are willing to supply pix or info (as far back as they can remember)... but i do it with the snakes i breed/sell and hold back.

it can also be a way to trace your stock IF something spectacular pops up and you want them back!

Thanx for sharing

~Z
-----

Royal ReptileZ

i use to request pix of parents when i purchased snakes (for my records) and not many "breeders" are willing to supply pix or info (as far back as they can remember)... but i do it with the snakes i breed/sell and hold back.

it can also be a way to trace your stock IF something spectacular pops up and you want them back!

Zenny, I used to supply 3" floppies with my chondro sales. I would supply important info, pics, feeding, and shed info from day one. Since most computers don't have floppy drives any more, I've stopped doing this. I need to start again.

And I totally agree with your second part. I just hatched out some very interesting hypo hondurans and traced the males genes back to some aberrant vanishing patter bloodlines. I'll post pics soon.......they are VERY COOL!

Brandon Osborne
-----
www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

You can do it with a crom.
CDRs are cheap and very few computers with a cdrom drive that can't read a CDR still are in use.

If you do - try to use the ISO-9660 file format as any operating system can mount CDs with that file format allowing the user to read the files on it. I think at this point MS-Joliet is supported by almost everyone for free, but that wasn't always the case - and it really has no advantage over the open standard ISO-9660.

Also - try to avoid using MS Word format as word is not readable in all word processors, and word is not available for some operating systems (such as Linux, small marketshare but gaining popularity - especially in the science community). You can use word to make them, but either save as a PDF file or use RTF.

Personally - I won't have a computer w/o a floppy drive.
I very rarely ever use one - but I always make sure I have one available for use. Except for laptops I put together my own computers though, so I just make sure I buy a case w/ provision and mobo with connector. Laptops almost always have one you can buy for the expansion bays.
-----
11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.1 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus nasicus (W Hognose)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Brandon,

Like you I will use what Greg Maxwell has laid down for tracking an animal as a guideline, more then likely I wont be around (work) when the egss hatch so I cant add anything to which piped first (the first piped egg from the clutch) or maybe even the first clutch laid. So I might use JA.07.9 (9 = came from a clutch of 9 eggs). I also like the idea of using Sire and Dam for the breeders, so maybe JA.04.9.Sire if they are planed breeders.

Greg also uses the word “type” to best describe where the snake appears to be from visually without actually having any proof. Really Greg’s book is very informative even if you are not keeping/breeding Chondros.

Like I said in my posts below pedigree starts with W/C breeders with as reliable documentation as possible but even still the pedigree chain if you will starts with the neonates and documentation, photos attached to them. Not many snakes can claim to have heritage traced back 30 years but Chondros do so it can be done. I like the mentality that Greg sets in his book and will try to stay true to it in my breeding projects.

Of course the question is how far do you or can you trace back? Parents, Grand parents Great grandparents? I try to know the parents I am not sure how far to go back because some breeders know and document allot more then others.
-----
Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

I use a clutch designation - IE

2007AA - MBK clutch my MBK fathered (I don't own female)
2007AB - cal king clutch
2007AC - cal king clutch
2007AD - alligator lizard clutch

offspring are given a number in the clutch -

2007AB-05 for example.

If 15 years from now someone wants to know information about that hatchling, I can look up who the parents were of that clutch.

I decided against encoding the parents into it because of the possibility that there may be multiple fathers to a clutch - which I would probably do if I had something notorious for producing slugs (such as zonatas) caused by males having an off season, or garter snakes where I let several males fight over a female in a breeding ball (I may never keep thamnophis again though).

This though is where a public registry is of use.
With a public registry, 15 years from now someone else can get that information easily and quickly even I died tomorrow. Assuming I entered the information into the public registry.

That's why I like the ACR - I can look up all kinds of genetic histories on things w/o needing to bother the person who owns the snake. I just need the ACR number - and it's known genotype and family history is there for me to see.
-----
11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.1 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus nasicus (W Hognose)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

Any type of registry, btw, needs to be completely neutral about the quality and alleged "purity" of ones stock.

Attempt to increase the value of one breeders stock over another based upon pedigree status seems suspicious to me - seems like an attempt for new breeders coming in to build "valuable" stock at the expense of some old timers who helped build this industry who for whatever reason are denied "pedigree" status.

registry should only be used for lineage and tracking traits, not a marketing tool to claim one breeders stock is somehow worth more than another breeders stock.
-----
11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.1 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus nasicus (W Hognose)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

I totally agree. But in the case with chondros, some folks use the history as a selling tool even when "normal" green chondros are produced. To me, an exceptional genetic blue or yellow animal is worth the price, but high dollar green animals just for the pedigree is a bit too much. Yes they should be a little more than normal, but sometimes they are many thousands more. Sorry to stray there. I just have to vent sometimes about people using things like this just for the almighty $.

Brandon Osborne
-----
www.brandonosbornereptiles.com