Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello, I found a baby so-cal alligator lizard about 4 inches long -mostly tail- in my apt. about a week ago. I didn't want to let it go because it is very small (and cute) and I live in the middle of a cement wasteland. I identified it using the pics on this site (thanks! spot on) and put together a 20 gal aquarium for it as suggested.

It has been going through at least 5 small crickets a day,chasing them all over the place. I have no idea how it is managing to eat so much and still be so tiny. I would like to hold it and make sure it doesnt have mites or anything, but it(?)gets quite frightened if I put my hand in the tank. I have not bothered her, as she looks rather fragile. Are there any tricks to handling young lizards without traumatizing them? Should I just leave her be for now?

And if I am suposed to vary her diet, what else can I feed it that is small enough besides these small crickets? How old do you think this lizard might be?

thanks for all the help on this site!

-laneante

It’s hard to give an age estimate, as you did not say how big exactly it is. My almost full-grown S Alligator Lizards eat upward of 40 large crickets a week. I am not sure of a varied diet as I only feed mine crickets. I would say its best to fond a suitable habitat and let the little one go. If you must keep it then start handling it right away and tame it down or you will be sorry. I keep mind wild at heart and just having my hand in the cage presents opened mouths and hissing and a rather painful bite every so often.
RR

Over time they will learn to trust the hand that feeds them. I have 5 captive babies now, I have the orange head winged roaches that breed well, I take fresh baby roaches and thet love 'em ! When I lived in Brea I had dozens in my yard due to the large waterbug (roach) population. I'd guess roaches are a wild staple food item. You'll find over time that they will hunt and eat like cats, its very cool to watch. My adult colony is mostly wild caught and about 2/3's have learned to come to the door of the cage and eat from hand.
Some care advise; Unless you have a/c in your house, you won't need heat in so cal(ie;spot lamps).(If you do use a spot,go low,ie 20 watt) I use a GE chroma 50 flourecant bulb for uv.(very good and cheap) allthough They aren't extreme sungazers in the wild and probably don't need anywhere near the uv of alot of other lizards. I supplement about evey three - four feeding with repcal or minerall. Good luck, Chuck

They also love meal worms and wax worms. Go easy on the mealworms, its best to feed those when they're white after a shed. Try looking under the leaf litter in your yard for bugs they might like.
chuck

Thank you for all your advice!!

Jason suggested I let the little one go, and I am still trying to decide. As a baby, she seems quite happy in her aquarium, but when she gets bigger, how much space will she need? I dont want to make her miserable. Is it possible to release her some months from now, if I make a point of not handling her too much? how "happy" (if it is possible to judge such things in reptiles?) do you think captives can be? I have never had any pet reptiles before.

I am thoroughly enjoying watching her. Its like watching a minature dragon. I hunted around for other bugs like Chuck suggested, and came back with some earwigs and caterpillars. She chased the earwigs, but they were too fast, and apparently she hates caterpillars. she completely ignored them untill one crawled on her tail, and then she hid her head and thrashed about to get it off. I removed the offensive bugs.

Her size - sorry I can't be more specific, like I said, I haven't been holding her - is almost exactly 2 inches from nose to back feet. The rest is squirmy tail...it could be as long as three inches. I will post a picture soon. She is a beautiful coppery red, with dark brown racing stripes down the side. Her face is a bit paler than the rest of her. When do they get their adult colors?

I will look for wax worms and meal worms and a calcium supplement next time I go for more crickets. Also, I dont have AC, so am just using a flourescent bulb. The pet shop people gave me the same advice there as Chuck. Its been always ~80 degrees in my apt, and she gets a bit of morning sunlight where she is.

I noticed she is more likely to be up and about at 10 at night than at 8 in the morning, even if I turn the light on earlier. Which suits me perfect. I was not expecting such nocturnal behaviour, though.

thanks again!
laneante

10pm sounds about right. My studies have shown that S. Alligator Lizards come out of hiding to hunt and what not at around 10:30PST. As far as letting it go months from now I personally don’t see a problem with it but there are certainty legality issues there as the DFG sees a problem with it for some rezone. I keep my 2 full grown S. Alligator Lizards in a 20G long modified turtle tank. I personally think you should go for more like a 30-40G tank but they seem happy and content in the 20G. .
RR

Yep, 20 gal when bigger will be better, although there is nothing wrong with keeping 1 individual in a 10 gal. careful of sunlight through glass and windows,a- its hot and will cook it and b- the light really has no value as a replacement for direct sun outside. I have found though that the lizards do recognize the real sunlight and do enjoy it. Mental state of captive animals is important to long term survival. Be aware that petshops will oversell what you really need. You did best getting free advise here. Try and find a GE Chroma 50 bulb. They come in 24 inch size for around $4-6.oo each, much cheaper that the stuff sold in petshops. There is a wholesale lighting place on Pac coast Hwy in Long Beach that uesed to have them.
My vote is to keep the pet, they're alot of fun and far from threatend or endangered so your not hurting the enviro any! That animal you describe is a fresh hatchling from this year.
good luck
Chuck

Wax worms are too big for it now, stick with small crickets and yard bugs.

Substrate can be clean dirt from the yard with some dry leaf litter as cover. Take the dirt and leaves, put them in a melt- proof container and cook the stuff for 2-3 hours in the oven at 200 degrees. This will kill the bugs you dont want.
Chuck

Contrary to what you may read from some individuals on this forum, I suggest keeping your alligator lizard. Since the lizard may be young, he or she may have a better chance at a longer life than out in the wild where they have to fight of cats, birds, dogs and the like. If you take care of your lizard properly, then they can have a long life in captivity.

Also, consider yourself lucky to catch one of these lizards. They are notoriously difficult to catch (I caught mine sunbathing near my pool and I am unable to catch another one). I have mine in a 30 gallon tank with wood bark substrate, rocks and things for her to climb on. A water dish is essential. Also, I have a heat lamp as well as a UV lamp. Also, have alot of places for your lizard to hide.

One thing you have to check on before putting your lizard in the cage is for mites. Give your lizard an olive oil bath to make sure your lizard is mite free.

Hope this helps!
Jonathan

I had 15 Southern Als hatch out for me Saturday (I'll try to post pics tomorrow). They are about 4 inches from head to tail tip. Because it is so young, the chances of it having mites or other parasites is very small (I've never had problems with mites in wild caught als in this size range and I doubt that mites could even squeeze under the tiny scales, but if you're worried you can check the ears). It is at a perfect age for "domestication" and should be very happy in the tank you have provided it. It will be sexually mature at around 2 years of age.

Young alligator lizards are easily stressed so leaving it alone is the best policy (there will be plenty of time to accustom it to handling when it is older and tougher). Crickets make an excellent staple just make sure that you dust them with the appropriate vitamin and calcium supplements.

Don't feel bad about keeping it. The odds are stacked against a youngster surviving to maturity (especially in a heavily populated area) so if you decide you want a pet it is much better to raise a baby than to remove a reproducing adult from the wild.

-Alice

I agree with Alice and Jonathan, both made good points, except Jonathan needs a lesson in herping cause those thing cover every square inch of California! The Liz. is definately better off long term in your house , however they are a success story in the way the live in suburbia so. cal. right in people yards, I had about 6-8 in my yard when I lived in Brea.

ps Jonathan, go flip boards/rocks/wood in a nearby field , if you don't have luck try after it rains. (before winter)

Thanks everyone for the advice, and congradulations on your hatchlings, Alice.

But perhaps I should not keep her after all, something seems to be terribly wrong....
i just came back from the pet store with more crickets, pin heads dusted with reptile vitamin powder.

I have noticed a frightening thing. She is very sluggish and has a lump in her little tummy. I hope this means she just swallowed a big cricket! There were a few bigg-ish ones in the last batch. I've also never seen her use her water dish, if that is an indication of anything.

Her environment is sterile potting soil and that dried moss they give you for terrariums, with some rocks, sticks, water dish, thermometer, and tipped over little plant pot from my balcony (I dont use any pesticides or such things, and presumably that is where she is from). If she notices you staring at her she usually runs into the plant pot through the drainage hole, and then sticks her head out the front. Although, not today.

I am withholding crickets untill lump goes away. I am very worried. Is there anything I might have done which could have caused a lump? What should I do now? I have not picked her up, untill today, because she didnt look so good. And she didnt really resist much,
so I'm taking that to be awfull! Could she have eaten a pebble? Or hit herself on something? Or...? Oh dear..........

-laneante, feeling sick herself now.

Probably just big food, watch it.
chuck

sadly, looks worse today, back limbs not moving well, second bump, on spine. Its mentaly awake, snapping on inspection, but movment seems restricted, back legs not working. bad, bad, bad. Tail still moves so I presume this is not an actual spinal injury, but something nastier. MBD?

I also noticed in the nbhd petstore a tank of hatchling southern al's labled as "free lizard with purchase of tank and appropriate lighting equipment" Pretty bad, huh? And worse, the cage is in a dark corner with no light at all,(is that what they mean to sell with free lizard?). So, my confidence in them, and their advice, and their reptile vitamins, just dropped a lot.

laneante

I strongly suggest you take your alligator lizard to a vet preferably someone who is knowledgable about lizards. A physical evaluation is free but some places may charge you upto $25 depending on the severity of trauma.

MBD usually takes a long time to develope and I've successfully maintained southern als without UV for over 2 yrs with proper supplementation (they have UV now, but don't seem to appreciate it). Since you were supplementing, I doubt that its MBD. Perhaps it has an impaction or an internal injury. I once found a youngster that looked like it had a run in with a weed eater (it was missing a foot and part of a leg). I treated the injuries and initially it fed well. But, after 3 days it started acting lethargic. It passed its meals completely undigested with some blood and died a few days later. Since you found yours under a rug, perhaps it suffered some trauma which was not immediately apparent. You can try seeing if it will lick some pedialite off a dropper to keep it hydrated and give it some calories. Releasing it in this condition would be a death sentence.

Good luck
-Alice

thanks, Alice. I was just looking up the time frame of MBD and couldn't find it, very timely advice. Your babies are beautiful, btw. Thats exactly like what I've got(had?) here.

It is possible its an internal injury. Really, I have no idea. But if it is, it must happened a week and a half ago and suddenly worsened.

I'll try the pedialyte. I sort of doubt I could afford any type of vet bill. I wont let it go in this condition, although I was tempted to when I thought it was MBD.

Good luck catching lizards, Jonathan. I'm sure chuck was teasing in a comradely fashion and not insulting you, when he said you need herping lessons. If you dont live near Alice, but near SD, go to PetKingom, they've got a bunch, too.

laneante

I realize I'm not going to be poular with this oppinion, but freeze it if it stops eating and death seems certain. Don't waste your $$ on a vet for a common abundant non-endanged animal. I bet you could talk Alice out of one if she is in Cal. where they can't be sold legally. Make sure the soil isn't too moist, if so, it could be blistering of the skin. If it eats keep feeding it and good luck

Chuck

Thanks, Chuck. Ironically, alas, she is as we speak in my fridge. Why do you say put her in the freezer? a calm death? She died this afternoon.

My bioscientist best friend and I will try and determine the cause of death by sneaking her into a university lab later on this week. If I can rule out it being my fault, I may try with another. I will wait a while and think about it. These are wonderful creatures I had been introduced to in the last week. (ie, and I dont want to hurt any more, either)

I am still wondering if it indeed was MBD. If she was in my apt, say a week before I found her, just hatched,who knows what she was eating or exposed to? And you guys are *absolutley sure* babies are normally fine with just crickets and rep-cal/heptivite? both you and Alice have taken care of hatchlings before. she had paralysis and tremors at the end, poor thing.

But like alice said, I did find her under a rug, so maybe she got stepped on... what a sad way to end the thread...

laneante

I've seen alligator lizards with MBD (not mine). It typically first manifests itself in the jaw. The animal will lack the jaw strenght to properly crush its prey and the food items will just slide out of its mouth. Then over the course of several months other skeletal deformities will appear the legs will often become bent and the ribs excessively bowed. It can take a lizard over a year to die of MBD. And, even after severe skeletal deformities have appeared, the lizard can "recover" if its diet and husbandry needs are met. Although the bones will harden, they will remain deformed. Due to the rapid onset of illness and death in your lizard I doubt it was MBD, even if you hadn't been supplementing MBD wouldn't kill it within the space of a couple weeks.

The only thing other than some kind of trauma that I can think of that would have lead to the symptoms you described would be some type of impaction. What kind of substrate did you have it on? If it swallowed a woodchip for example, the sharp edges could have perforated its intestine. This could explain the lump. The other syptoms could be caused by the infection that followed. If this is the case, it should be readily apparent in the necropsy.

If you find that it did die of impaction and decide to try again, I'd recommend rabbit pellets as substrate (cheap, and completely digestible although they will mold if wetted). Then make a hide box out of a plastic container and fill it with moist bed-a-beast or eco-earth (the particles are relatively soft and small enough to be easily passed if ingested), and by placing it only in the hide box, you minimize its chances of being consumed while the lizard is hunting its prey. Many als will also readily take prey out of a bowl (mine get a bowl of mealies or crickets minus hoppers).

They make wonderful pets so don't let the loss of this little one discourage you

-Alice

laneante,
Hey, I feel for your loss of your lizard! I have lost several and its like loosing a favorite cat or dog. Hopefully the next alligator lizard experience will be better if you decide to get another one.
Chuck, no problemo dewd! I'm chillin!! No offense taken.

Did I understand you to say a petstore has hatchlings for sale? This isn't legal in California as far as I'm aware. I don't believe alligator lizards are on the list of native species legal to breed and sell offspring from. Maybe I misunderstood you and the store is in another state.

Matt

its possible they were some other species, i guess... I'm no expert. perhaps I dont know what I'm talking about.

also, they werent for sale, they were some 'unnamed lizard' that was being given away. Maybe some one had a batch and knew they coudlnt sell 'em, or release 'em, so didnt know what else to do...

Chuck,
I guess a majority of people on this forum need lessons in herpetology 101 or else it wouldn't exist, would it? I don't profess to being a herpetologist (I'm a computer software engineer with many interests and one of these are lizards) and most of my comments on this forum are from my observations regarding my alligator lizard. If you feel you need people with more experienced feedback then try some other place.

FYI, I have lived in Southern California for more than 10 years in different places (San Diego, Redondo Beach, and now Riverside County) and I have seen numerous dead alligator lizards on driveways, garages, and pools but never a live one. Just recently I saw one dead in my backyard before I caught mine. If you have better luck catching them then good for you! Geography and luck play an important part in catching these critters. There are numerous references on the internet on the difficulty of catching these type of lizards no matter what the weather is like.

I've found that abundance varies depending on location. Even where they are common expect to invest a fair amount of time searching. If you invest an hour a day flipping boards, rocks, etc in appropriate habitat you should be able to find at least one after 2 to 3 weeks (at least that's about the frequency that I encounter tham on the central coast of CA). Late April to mid September is the best period to find them. Look for boards or rocks in sunny fields. I also have regularly found alligator lizards abroad during the day in grassy fields with scattered shrub cover and in heavily vegetated drainage ditches. If the weather is cool don't count on finding them out and about, however. Now would be a good time to do intensive searching because eggs are hatching and there will be lots of babies about before the predators find them. To stack the odds in your favor you can return to the site where you caught yours. If there aren't any boards or "liftable" objects in the vicinity, you can put some out and check them regularly.
Good luck and remember persistance pays off
-Alice

P.S. Where do you live? If you live near Santa Barbara or San Luis Obispo Counties I may be able to help you out

Alice, I caught 2 huge males in Ojai a few years back, do you know the sub species of that area?
Chuck

According to Stebbins (author of Western Reptiles and Amphibians) those would be San Diegos. If you haven't seen it, click on the lizards link at the following web page: http://www.californiaherps.com/ it has great pics of the various alligator lizard subspecies.
-Alice

Alice,
I live in Moreno Valley which is in the Riverside area. San Luis Obispo area is about 50-70 miles south of me (near to San Diego). I almost caught two in my back yard but they were too fast for me. I am still debating whether I should catch another one since my present alligator lizard is very acclimated to the 30 gallon tank I got her. Introducing another male or female may cause some problems. I was wondering how are you able to have more than one alligator lizard coexist in the same tank? Was there anything special you have to do?

P.S Congrats on the new babies! I am envious since my female laid about a dozen eggs after I caught her but all the eggs died.

I've kept 3 in a 20 gal with no problems and when I was little I once had 6 in a 27 gal. I have only heard of conflict breaking out if two males are housed together. Since yours is a female and the tank is so large I wouldn't think that introducing a companion would be a problem just make sure that there are multiple hiding places available. None of mine have ever behaved aggressively when I've introduced someone new. I would recommend quarenteening your new lizard, especially if it's an adult. This way if it does end up having mites you will not have to worry about treating both lizards. A tall critter keper with a ring of vasaline around the top works well. I put the vasaline on the inside as this will keep mites off the lid (less to wash) if the lizard does turn out to be infected. 3 weeks quarenteen is usually enough.

I'm actually north of you. So you've got San Diegos rather than Californias.

The babies are really cool so getting a male would definitely be worth the trouble. If you catch one flip it over immediately because males will often evert a hemipenis while trying to poop on you. Good luck

-Alice

Lighten up Dude, It wasn't meant to be an insult, but I disagree with anyone who has told you they are hard to find. They're almost as abundant as Blue bellies but discrete in habits and therefore more work to find. The rocky hills all aound Riverside are loaded with them,Watch for Rubers though!

Good luck,Chuck