Reptile & Amphibian Forums

anerythristic(absent red? ery=red), axanthic(absent yellow?xan=yellow), both??? are the 2 known lines(lemke,NE) one or the other???, what about compatability? obviously those two lines are but? how far has that been taken??? there are 2 types of anery in corns that are not compatable resulting in many more types of doublehomo animals(green,yellow,and pink snowsetc,etc. primary colors no less ), could/is this happening now in kings? has it been taken for granted that anery/axan are the SAME thing?in kings? are they?... opinions??? ,,,,,,,,,,
thomas davis
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Okay real quick here as i am late for an appointment.

Reds,ornages , yellow all come from the same place. Since the brooks kings have all 3 of these colors the terms anery and axanthic can be used exhangable. I got this info from the father of snake genetics himself, Dr Bern Bechtel.

I think "we" (ka brooks breeders) use the terms more to deignate different lines of Florida kings.. Example the lighter speckled New Englands and Lemkes are refferred to as axanthics and the BHB lines and other black and white lines are reffered to as anerythistics. These "axanthics" originated from s. dade county stock and turn out as nice light yellow specled adults in the visual normal form. This lighter color effects things in the visual "axanthic" form. Also since the anerys come from the darker florida king stock it makes for easier identification for hobbiests. Today you will see many babies on the clssifieds and for sale at shows that are a combination of the two lines. They are usually priced very cheap ($35-$50) and don't turn out as nice adults.

Just like the term "brooksi" is still used to differentiate the South Dade co. animals from others, the term aney and axanthic do the same. Techincally they are all Florida kings today (floridana). Brooksi has been done away with from nomenclature if anyone did not know this already. So they are all Florida kings.

this is a nice lokking black and white anery baby. But they don't look as nice as adults. They darken up and the color seperation gets real muddy. The visual "normal" form of these do seem to have higher amounts of red than most of the "brooksi" animals.. There are the same "line" as the axanthic. However there is a different strain than the axanthic that looks just like the anery pictured here that is been reported as being non allelic with the Lemke / New England axanthic and this anery line.

Confused?

Sorry i don't have more time to write as i am running out the dorr late for a birthday party.

I will be back later today with more info.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Reds,ornages , yellow all come from the same place. Since the brooks kings have all 3 of these colors the terms anery and axanthic can be used exhangable. I got this info from the father of snake genetics himself, Dr Bern Bechtel.

of the 3 primary colors they do not come from the same place, now maybe erythaxanthephoree thingees dont go by primary colors but irregardless we should label different known NONallelic types like anery1,anery2 etc. it stands to reason resulting doublehomo specimans would look somewhat different huh,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

Axanthic:

Axanthism is a genetic abnormality where Xanthophores is unable to synthesize yellow pigments. This results in an individual that lacks of yellow pigmentation. An individual displaying axanthism is typically black and white, but within this subspecies (floridana), axanthic specimen can express a blue/purple/gray coloration.

Anerythristic:

Anerythrism is similar to the genetic mutation axanthism. The difference here is Erythrophores are unable to synthesize red pigments, which results in an individual that lacks red pigmentation. An Anerythristic individual may appear black and white, however yellow pigments are still present. This is evident in the “Sulphur” line snows

ummmmmmmmm are they the same thing???

I don't think so... i think there has been too many pairings that lacked proper documentation/ Knowledge of the genes involved... so there is a possibility that some of the Axanthics we come to know are probably double Homozygous so when bred to an anery you're still able to produce all anerys.

The black and white axanthics were used for the "pearl snows" and those snows are WHITE! IF the gene involved was ANERY there would be some yellow present like we see in the sulphur snows...

This season i bred the 2nd generation Sulphur lavender X BHB line Anery

i got 3.1 snows...

1.1 are showing yellow like the sulphur snows... i think they will have a cream color as adults but yellow pigments will come through.

2.0 are pink... i think they will be white as adults and not show yellow

(again back to my 2x homozygous axanthic/anery theory)

I can say it's just disappointing that these things weren't better documented.

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Royal ReptileZ

Oh they were well documented. The descriptions you give came from Dr. Bechtel. I was able to sit down with him for two years ina row and discuss the anery vs axanthic in particular to brooks kings. I showed him the animals and got his opinions first hand from the Peanut butters and axanthic I was showing him. The following year I asked the same questions just to make sure i got it right.Of course he gets a little more detailed than i and used terms I could not undertand. But this was the outcome..

The two terms can be used inerchangably. Because when does yellow turn orannge and yellow stays yellow. Pigment (xantophores ?)originate from the same place. Since a florida king statrts out black/brown with red/orange and then goes through a ontogenetic lightening process (red-orange-yellow's)who is to say what is what.

Basically what i am saying is the New England phenotypes and also the lemke phenotypes came from the nice high yellow brooks kings that were selectivly bred from s. florida for high yellow appreances. These lighter florida kings produced lighter "axanthics". The darker ones produce the anerys. Its just a name to differentiate for us. Not rocket science.

There is even a ticolor milk pictured in Bechtels book labled axanthic. Now isn't that a mostly red snake?
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Welllllll my description came from the info I'll be putting on the Floridana morph web site... it came from a little bit of research (Dr. Bechtel, didn't come up actually)... believe it or not many of the mutations that occur in reptiles occur in humans [the same or similar] (i.e. Xanthism occurs in humans and it is the presence of MORE yellow pigment)

I'm having "fun" working on this web site... the software (Dream Weaver CS3) is tricky if you don't know how to use it, but I'm taking a tutorial soon.

I do understand the point of using the names interchangeably... BUT like you said there has been documented pairings where the Axanthic and Anery genes were shown to NOT be allelic

I. Rick at Renegade Reptiles (rest his soul) bred Axanthic to Anery and got all normal 2x hets

II. Dave B. when he paired Axanthic WS to Snow or ghost (I forget which) and didn't get a clutch of all Axanthic 2x hets (rather Axanthics and normal quad hets)

so while it would be easier to group these two mutations together the reality is that they ARE different.

Have you ever tried breeding a NE Axanthic male to your Anery het lavender female??? I think you may get all hets from that pairing.

example of Xanthism

~Z
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Royal ReptileZ

Zenny there is two different strains of what we call anerythristic. One strain IS allelic with the axanthics and there is one other strain that is not.

Remeber there is a difference behind the meaning of "lines" and "strains".

The names can still be applied interchangably and I thought that what we were talking about?
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Thomas asked if they (Axanthic and Anery) were the same thing

I'm not talking about the LINES involved... I'm talking about the two individual genes... my use of NE, Lemke, BHB, is my way of identifying the known Axanthic/Anery strains.

Example I. The BHB line Anery looks NOTHING close to the NE/Lemke line Axanthics... but they could or could not be allelic, it won't surprise me if they aren't allelic.

Example II. The black and white AXANTHICS are called Anerys but are they really Anerys????

"We" have established the fact that NE and Lemke lines are allelic... both look very similar (blue)... but what about the black and white Axanthics and the BHB line Anery... are they allelic with each other or the NE/Lemke line... we don't know, so what are they really? (axanthic or anery)

All I'm say'n is the same thing you are say'n ... there are AXANTHIC Floridana and there are ANERYTHRISTIC Floridana... two completely different/ non-allelic genes.

The "fact" that Anery and Axanthic "can be used interchangeably" really just groups them in the same category and they are not the same thing...

Personally i think it would be better to isolate/differentiate the two genes rather than just say the terms are interchangeable.

~Z
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Royal ReptileZ

...why not take a bit from the cornsnake guys and call one anery and another say...charcoal or whatever... AneryI and aneryII....
Xanthic is obviously MORE yellow while (a)xanthic is obviously absence of yellow. I suppose there may be hypo xanthism and hyper xanthism too?
Don't know if I can spell it much less keep up.
What about a hypermelanistic FL king??
got one of those??? hmmm???

:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Zenny I mentioned in my previous post that the BHB line of anery is allelic with the Lemke and NE line. They are the same thing. The phenotypes is what causing the different appearance.

remember I have the BHb line and it is allelic with the lemke and NE line. BUT there is another anery that BHB has been selling that appears to be non allelic with the NE, Lemke and BHbanery. Confusing huh!?

Their is supposedly a second "strain" of anerys but it is very strange how none of it can be backed up 100%. The breeding that Renegade did is no longer a source since the person died. The only person who has these supposed double het anerys is Barct (Horridus) and we will not know anything conclusive with the results of that breeding. In other words if the new snake come out anerys and anerys you could not even tell if one is different from the other. The only thing we have is a second hand story on how he brede the two line and got hets. Heck mabe he bred two hets to one another, we will never know the whole truth now.

Fist someone find me Bart (horridus) to post what he knows on this (BART I HOPE YOU ARE WORKING ON LABOR DAY BECAUSE THE ONLY TIME YOU CHECK YOUR COMPUTER IS WHILE YOU ARE SUPPOSED TO BE WORKING). Second find someone that bred the BHB line to any other line and got hets. It is becoming more dubious to me that there is a second strain than before.

I am going to call Brian Barzyck on monday to ask him more. And if he is off monday as well I will call him later on in the week. Darn Labor day..nobody labors!

Since Florida kings are mostly red the term anery is applied. Since south florida "brooksi" phenotypes have been bred for high yellow- axanthic is used.

axanthic lacking mostly yellow pigment-meaning a snake that is mostly yellow

anerythritic lacking mostly red pigment- meaning a snake that is mosly red, brown ect.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

"axanthic lacking mostly yellow pigment-meaning a snake that is mostly yellow

anerythritic lacking mostly red pigment- meaning a snake that is mosly red, brown ect."

WHAT????
Don't you mean...xanthic and erythristic???
Without the prefix "a" or "an"??? As in ANTI??
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

As for anerythristic vs. axanthic, it comes down to which color appears in a normal specimen of the species and is lacking in the mutant specimen.
Animals that lack xanthophores would be axanthic. Animals that have xanthophores which are unable to make yellow/red pigment are also axanthic.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

I interpreted your statement to say an axanthic animal would be yellow..
Ihave no formal english education.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

you have to agree..the female founder stock means alot!

there is two different strains of what we call anerythristic. One strain IS allelic with the axanthics and there is one other strain that is not...

strains are what im speaking of. IF there are 2 different NONallelic anery/axan strains. then what are resulting doublehomo offspring from the 2 strains like? like say a snow from a anery1Xlav and a snow from anery2Xlav,etc,etc,etc... its time to establish a "tree" of sorts to remove all/any confusion,,,,,,,,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

I love this discussion... I remember going around this topic over and over and over with "big jack bronson" years ago...

Z-
last year I did an axanthic white side to a snow female, expecting to get all axanthics that would be double heterozygous for ws and albino, on the path for a ws snow.
When the eggs hatched I got some nice purply axanthics, like I expected, but I also got a bunch of normals, totally unexpected.
So while I can't prove it, ( maybe the ws gene messed things up or ???) I suspect that there is a different axanthic gene/allele/locus/ hocus pocus in there between the ws axanthic and snow.

As far as terminology, Rainer, I give you all the credit in the world for the work you do. But I think it is more confusing to say axan/anery when differentiating between lines of the same trait. All show a lack of yellow pigment, regardless of what allele the trait resides on and cross compatabilty. None show a lack in red pigment, including het offspring ( can you prove a negative?). I like what the corn folks do type a,b,c.... at this point,there is no way to test for anerythrism in floridana as there is no 100% consistently red phenotype that is demonstrably genetic (like there is in corns)- dominant, recessive, codominant, sex linked, wild type...the only observed linkages are to hypomelanism, a legit floridana trait, and to the x-o albinos, not necessarily a legit floridana trait. And as we know, these links are anything but 100%. Also, look at the production of red bulls. Does anyone have that figured out yet 100%?
And for dessert, as far as red in normal hatchling floridana- I will have to do some digging to source this but- as in some birds, the appearance of red is linked to diet. Ever see an ibis or flamingo at a zoo on a low carotenoid diet? Somewhere I have read that dietary lipid content affects the function or production of erythrophores. We know the diet of snake hatchlings in the egg is predominately phospholipids (- which amount may vary from egg to egg so may be why some in a clutch are reddish and siblings aren't). Once they come out, we feed them pinkies that are predominately water and lipids. As the snake grows and eats prey that is proportionately less lipid, the red starts to go away...think about that?
merely my .002.
but go ahead, prove me wrong, hahahaha....
daveb

This pic is of the axws x snow that I did last spring.

yeah ole jack the cheesehead i think his new handle may be jmonohan,poor guy ahwell...

yes dave yes dave thats what im talking bout doublehomozygous from 2 different similiar but different strains of a particular morph like aney/axan or better yet trips&quads!oh my!,,,,,thomas
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Morphs... just like baseball cards BUT ALIVE, how cool is that???

my website www.barmollysplace.com

"But I think it is more confusing to say axan/anery when differentiating between lines of the same trait. "

I agree.
I see the logic in the two names, but ultimately the same recessive mutation doesn't need two different names based on one aspect of the phenotype that tends to disappear anyway. On the other hand, I'd want to know if the ancestors were very speckled, high-band count, brooksi-looking snakes vs the more floridana (old definition) appearance.
Cornsnake breeders eventually coined widely-accepted names for different "looks" of amelanistic snakes created from various color variations, but the only underlying mutation is still the same.

On the other hand, I'd want to know if the ancestors were very speckled, high-band count, brooksi-looking snakes

The axanthics all originated from the high band count, small body, small head south dade county locale. The anerys are not.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Ontogenetic change is a pretty normal thing with Fl kings. They start out dark with light bands, and their dark coloration gradually fades to a lighter coloration. This isn't always true, there are plenty of adult FL kings that don't show any traces of speckling. Similarly, some, but not all, are born with red coloration, which fades as they get larger. Some retain the red coloration into adulthood. Below is one such example I found in the wild a few years ago. She was 3 feet long in that picture, though her coloration looks like that of a hatchling. Friends have bred adults that retained red, and gotten very red hatchlings. The terms anery and axanthic both apply to Florida kings.

It is a shame they were not documented, as you say. Even if just to help people produce what hybrid, or color morphs one was after.

Reading that the white-sided kings actually have rats snake blood - do I understand that correctly?

Where did the other morphs come from? Does anyone know? Who bred the first white-side kings?

Is there any way to re-create a family tree, so to speak?

Finally - as genetic testing gets cheaper, are we getting close to a time where we could routinely test a particular morph's genetics against wild caughts?

Joe

By "recreate a family tree" I mean locate the original producers of new morphs. Some of that was done below with hypo Hondurans for example.

I'm primarily interested in the getulus group.

Joe

Do you think no one else thought of this family tree idea?
Do you think that something like this could be thrown together by making a few phone calls?
The answers are no way, and please understand some of us on this very forum have been researching this stuff for years and have brought the histories of some snakes as best as anyone can ever write only to realize it's more often then not a complete waste of time.

Even if you were able to speak to the originator of every morph and snake out there there will be those who believe that history and those who do not. Snakes that some were fortunate enough to stumble upon by lucky individuals have been ruined by those who chose to not beleve their history and that is a crying shame.

One example discussed here has been the opposite effect...being someone whose partner was suspected to the point of obvious hybridization was credited with being the first to produce a few morphs without question. Now why is that? Because people believe what they wanna believe and chose to disregard facts...

Another thing that infuriates me is if a few people stand their ground and chose to think something is or is not a hybrid...so what if they change thier mind and make a post about it. Then what? Suddenly everyone should agree? Its ridiculous. People have been breeding snakes for far too many years to get a solid history of almost anything.

Some people are not with us any longer, some are out of this business, and some just will never give anyone a straight answer other than " I produced those and they're pure". Worst of all is when unusual things are caught in the wild even those are suspect of being crosses or hybrids. Good luck with your research, I have been doing similar studies for many years and it is a wild goose chase. There's a few things out there where you may get lucky, but for the most part it is a waste of time and making a family tree/history type site will most likely do more harm than good. For anyone who disagrees, fine...you go ahead and do that. Some people who are at the top of the well known breeder lists like the Bells or Applegate have the status of ebing able to produce animals and not be questioned....and some well known breeders even work with hybrids and are STILL never questioned when they produce new variants. Right there people should see that there's just no easy way to prove or disprove a history of any given snake. Sorry about the typos, I have not had much time to write lately. The bottom line is if you want a migraine, start writing your history type posts. You will never get anything resembling a thank you or a massive response of agreement. It will be nothing but eternal debate
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Tom,..........

There's not much at all that can be added to your post!.....

different people will ALWAYS believe what they want to believe.

Especially if if it sounds good to them coming from a certain source, etc.....

After all, snakes(and all other animals) are not made from a factory from just a select few ingredients and components.

I won't bother babbling on any further about it, because,..like you stated, many will debate and argue about things for an eternity anyway. My point is that, you hit on some very valid facts.........(in MY opinion!LOL!!!)

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I have been breeding snakes in small numbers since '92.

I am in no way a "name", however, there are some very reputable breeders who will gladly get snakes from me.

There is only so much history that can be produced on some snakes and that's just the way it is.

I maintain a line of hybrid thayerixruthveni that I am crossing back into my pure thayeri line every generation. These snakes are better than 90% pure now but I would NEVER represent them as pure.

If you want to be real hardcore, some folks won't even mess with thayeri because they believe that they aren't valid.

You can split hairs to the point that it isn't even fun anymore.

Again, great post.

Chris

White-sided having Ratsnake in it is still speculation as far as I'm concerned.

I have no reason to really doubt the authenticity of the morph. When ever a new morph pops up there is always going to be the skeptics... and "theories" will arise... PROVING these "theories" is another story.

I got my 1st WS this week and I LOVE IT!

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

Zenny,

I am sending this post to O.J. Simpson. He might need another jury if he gets into trouble again.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

I have no running theories really but I can tell you that the axnthics I hatched from 2x het/ghost X 2x het/ghost look different than the axanthics I hatched from 2x het/snow X snow FL kings...
As babies I kinda like the more white from my "snow" female but I like the purplish tones that are more prevalent in the "ghost" line...
I should snap pics but I'm waiting on some to shed..
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

What I find neat in corns is caramel.

by itself imho caramel often isn't too pretty (I think though that may be just because it hasn't been bred into good looking lines enough) but it does make some good looking double morphs.

Anyway - caramel reduces reds but seems to heighten yellows - while anery eliminates reds and almost eliminates yellows (aneryB better than aneryA but even they sometimes have some yellow showing)

Yellows and reds may be from the same pigment but I think there is more going on than just the pigment itself.
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11.14 L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
2.3 L. getula nigrita (MBK)
1.0 L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
1.1 Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus nasicus (W Hognose)
4.2.14 Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

I suppose there are layers of color. And then those that are visible to us and those that are hidden??
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/