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Hey everyone, after my most desperate attempts to get the last 3 snakes (11 successfuly eaters out of that clutch of 14) of my June 14th clutch to eat I've decided the most humane thing (after consulting the corn snake manual too) is to put them down. It's like Kathy says, these snakes were just not meant to be and any forced effort to encourage feeding would only encourage the passing of those lousy genes and propriation of non-eating snakes. It just isn't "in the cards for these guys"...

thoughts, ideas most welcome...

Freezer. At least that is what the idiot vet told me last year when he talked me into putting down one of my corns so he could do a necropsy and find out why it and some of my others where ill. (Necropsy came up non-conclusive, and I have since learned that freezing is probably why)..........

At any rate~ Supposedly you put the little darlings in the freezer and the will quickly go "Torpid" (Don't take them out at this point, they look dead but can still revive) and then quietly pass away sometime later. (I would give at least 24 hours)

Thats what the idiot vet told me anyway~ take the advice for what it's worth~ about $500 wasted in vet bills on one very dead snake. (Turned out my problem was environmental as the problems ceased after I moved from the AF base I was living on at the time)

Thanks, I was thinking freezer. This is going to be a hard to impossible thing for me to do, I feel so terrible already and I haven't even done it yet. I'm still tempted to just let them pass of starvation but I know that must be slow and painful, either way I wish they'd just eat, it's all such a shame, they are such active and healthy looking snakes (one or two of the three have shed twice). f/t, live, f/t beheaded, dark, small containers, days, nights, nothing worked.

Going to wait till the end of the month at least... it's going to take that much time to get the courage.

Have you try to feed them in the dark!?
I have had problem feeding my new snake. I tried everything people said on forums but he still refuse to eat, so, considering my snakes are active only when it's dark, i just decided to try it. I put the pinky in his feeding box with him, and then i close the lights, and he immediatly ate the mice!!

So if you havent try this, do it before to kill these poor little guy!!

hope it could help!

yes, I've done that, last night I left them in the dark with food and no dice. I always feed at dawn (nighttime).

I have tried EVERYTHING short of prying their mouths open and shoving food in, which I refuse to do...

I'll have to reread that part in The Corn Snake Manual, it makes me feel a little better about having to do the inevitable.

Just out of curiosity have you tried scenting the pinkies with anoles? I have seen that work a couple of times.
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2.9.8 Leopard Geckos
1.2.1 African Fat-tails
0.1 Gonisaurus Luii
1.1 Central American Banded Geckos
0.1 Gargoyle Gecko
1.1 Calabar Pythons
1.1 Savu Pythons
0.0.2 Cornsnakes
0.1.2 Chondropythons
0.1 Standing's Day Gecko
1.0 Frog-eyed Gecko
1.1 Ball Pythons

How old are they!? why don't you let them die by themselves!?! and still try to feed them, they surely can survive for few days!?!

I figure one of three things can happen. As most folks say, put them in the freezer so they will gently fade away, let them starve to death which doesn't seem like a nice way to go, or let them contribute to the food chain-possibly as nature intended them to. This can be done in one of two ways, do you know anyone who has a kingsnake that they use as a garbage disposal? I know Serp would feed slugs to his. Or you can let them go in the yard and let them fend for themselves and become a meal, once again, quite possibly what nature intended. Anyhow, good luck, it is never an easy choice, we want to see them all live and thrive.

In the past I had corns hatch out with kinks that just looked painful...so freezing seemed like the most humane option. However, I would not freeze simply b/c they went 2 months without eating yet. In fact, I was reading a post in another forum where someone kept the non-feeding babies, cooled them down through the winter with the rest of their herps, and found that when spring-time came the corns mysteriously ate! Its just my personal opinion BUT I do not think that its entirely genetics at work when corns don't eat. I know you don't want to force feed but it can be easy to pop a pinkie's head in the mouth of a baby snake, and its small enough that they rarely try to spit it back out. I had several baby ground boas die from not feeding only to try this and its working...Before that I was doing EVERYTHING you can imagine, even force feeding them guppies (which by the way are the easiest thing to force feed b/c they simply slide into the snakes throat). Did you say if you tried scenting them with anoles? Afterall, that is probably what many corns eat in the wild (especially in Florida region).
One more thing to keep in mind, if the babies have a plentiful supply of yolk, they may go quite a while longer before showing the effects of starvation. I would maybe keep a record of their pooping frequency (since I'm sure you keep track of the others' feedings anyway). GOOD LUCK and don't give up too soon!

"Hey everyone, after my most desperate attempts to get the last 3 snakes (11 successfuly eaters out of that clutch of 14) of my June 14th clutch to eat I've decided the most humane thing (after consulting the corn snake manual too) is to put them down. It's like Kathy says, these snakes were just not meant to be and any forced effort to encourage feeding would only encourage the passing of those lousy genes and propriation of non-eating snakes. It just isn't "in the cards for these guys"... thoughts, ideas most welcome..."

I have a small refrigerator that I can set fairly warm. So I think I will take some non-feeders, force-feed them a few times, wait until they empty out, then stick them in the 'fridge a few months while I am occupied with my other babies. I'll see what happens when I take them out. I never tried before because I didn't want to use the little 'fridge, and it is too warm here to cool them down to where they won't lose much body weight. I have heard that pyro and zonata breeders have been doing this successfully for years with their non-feeders, so I will give it a try too. If nothing else, at least I will have to deal with them when I am not already overloaded with other babies.

Good luck!

Warm blooded humans dropped into severe hypothermic situations are known to recover from "clinical" death (i.e. heart stops), for peroids of time and brought back after thawing with little side effects.

I understand how "cold blooded" works, but can't imagine cellular processes can be slowed to the perfect point where tissue damage doesn't occur after a few days/weeks.

Let us know how that works, although I don't think my girlfriend would go for a bunch of live snakes in the fridge all winter, biologically it's fascinating to me.

Hey everyone, after my most desperate attempts to get the last 3 snakes (11 successfuly eaters out of that clutch of 14) of my June 14th clutch to eat I've decided the most humane thing (after consulting the corn snake manual too) is to put them down.

Are you sure it's not too soon to make this decision? You said they are active and healthy-looking. The reason I ask it that it's only been about 9 weeks. I had some Children's python hatchlings that took more than 3 months to eat on their own. I did assist feed for the first time, but after that they pretty much took off.

If they were looking sick, then you may be right. Someone mentioned scenting with anoles. I'd try that (you could also try "Lizard Maker" which is a product that worked for me), as well as going back to some of the other things you did already. One thing that worked with the pythons was taking a frozen pink, cutting in half lengthwise and then thawing and feeding it. It was squishy, but it worked. If these guys are small, maybe a whole pink is too big.

Sometimes all you gotta do is "prime the pump" by assist feeding (just get it in their mouths) and then they take off.

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Pituophis

Why are you so against force feeding? I have a rat snake who would not eat as a hatchling. After several attempts my wife, who's the one who really takes care of my snakes, took a fingernail file and gently opened its mouth a eased the pinkie in. He attacked the second and has been feeding ever since. Just a thought. I hate to see the little guys starve. Maybe a little push is all they need.

That's one thing I forgot to try. Locating an anole in my area isn't going to be easy (Erie, PA pet shops stink hardcore), but I will definitely try that before doing anything.

One of my new babies in "MY STOCK" hasn't eaten since I received him and it's starting to bother me so maybe the anole will help.

It's perfectly ok just to let them eat the anole too right? I'll probably try scenting FIRST then if that fails, let the ANOLE loose and watch them duke it out...

Thanks everyone for your ideas and support

I live sort of near you & you're right... good pet stores are a rarity...BUT most importantly, you will NOT find an anole small enough to feed to a baby corn snake....therefore you would have to freeze or kill the anole, otherwise putting an anole too large for the corn in the same tank will just stress them both out. just to be CLEAR, i think most people here are implying that the anole is either frozen thawed or freshly killed. and if it is too big, then just try part of the anole not the whole thing....

n/p

First: tried anole scented live pinky
Second: tried frozen anole scented pinky
Third: said screw it and threw one of my June Clutch "non-eaters" in with the live anole. less than 5 minutes later he ate the anole...

what does this mean? Something better than nothing? Will he forever eat anoles? Do they usually accept frozen or live after this initial eating even if it is an anole?

Did I do good or bad?

thanks!

i think you did well! thats awesome you got it to eat. I read this thread form top to bottoma and I thought you were just going to freeze it... and then I come across.... MY JUNE CLUTCHER ATE...that put chills thru my spine.

I think the next thing to do is get a few more anoles. Feed them enough so that they keep weight on them, and start trying to scent pinkies with anole, until they go for it. You can try to scent anole with a little bit of pinkie, if they refuse to eat a pinkie. you know just to get them used to the scent.

But I think just keep working with them and you will have solid eaters.

Great news,

WES
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"Did you ever walk into a room and forget why you walked in? I think that's how dogs spend their lives."--Sue Murphy

WES SPINKS
E-Mail Me
Spinks Snake Site

I still have two more June clutchers and my new motley that refuse all f/t, live, and anything scented.

Tomorrow I'm going out for more anoles, 3 or 4 to see if I can have similar success.

It is pretty exciting, I never thought he'd do it but boy do those little guys respond to the anoles.

amazing.

thanks

How big/small were the anoles vs. your corns?
I ALWAYS have trouble finding smaller anoles at petstores...
Take some pics if ya can! Good stuff!

On a whim, I sent my girlfriend to try and sell off some of my August clutch f/t eating snakes to a local guy and asked her to pick me up some live pinks and an anole. The anole she got was just big enough to leave a noticable lump in the JUNE hatchlings stomach. She says they have 4 or 5 more left at that place so I guess I'm heading back there tomorrow.

I'll definitely take pics, I have some pics of two eggs that never hatched, well I have pics of WHY they didn't hatch, you'll all be amazed.. COMING SOON!

oops, lol I didn't see this post b4 I just replied...

Anyway, that's great that you got it to eat!
I'm so happy!

Good luck
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-Lauren

~ Lauren's Lizards ~

groups.yahoo.com/group/LaurensLizards

Awww, how old are they?
Why not just keep trying a bi longer? Have you tried senting the pinkies with something like a hampster, gerbil, or anole or something?
If they're still active, and havn't lost weight, I wouldn't give up on them yet!!
I totally understand that you don't want them to suffer though.
I'm so sorry... keep us posted.
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-Lauren

~ Lauren's Lizards ~

groups.yahoo.com/group/LaurensLizards

Hello –

I don’t usually frequent this forum, but your subject line caught my attention. Like everyone else, I vote for the freezer if you decide you must euthanize. BUT…why will you not consider assist feeding? You may have addressed this issue in another thread, so please forgive me if I just didn’t see it. I’m surprised that more people aren’t recommending this technique, so if I may be so bold, click here for a brief tutorial.

I’m an unabashed booster of this technique because it has worked so well for me over the years. We’re not talking about coddling some creatures with weak genes. It’s not their fault that they don’t recognize as food what I’m offering them to eat. I don’t always have the time or patience to piddle around with each hatchling trying to find just the right presentation. But by golly, sometimes they’re just going to have to learn to eat on MY schedule. And assist feeding is sometimes a great way to kick start the feeding response. Once they start on their own, there's usually no looking back!

Good luck whatever your choice,
Joan

Feed em to a california kingsnake. The kingsnake gets a snack/meal depending on its size, and the corn goes to good use. Ok, it's not super humane, but the corn gets swallowed whole... it's about as humane as feeding live pinks to a hatchling.

If you don't have something to feed the hatchlings to, then freezing may be your best bet... or whacking the snake's head against something hard... as gruesome as it sounds, it's a pretty quick death.
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"You keep WHAT in your freezer?"
"Mice. And rats. If that bothers you, I can call them 'cows' instead."

put them in a bowl and in the freezer. They just get cold and go to sleep. Have had to do it myself and its not easy......

I'm sorry, but in my opinion you as the caretaker of these snakes which you bred are responsible for the well being of all the progeny derived from breeding them. While you would certainly not want to breed snakes that are poor feeders to just euthanize them without giving them the same forethought, care, time, that you took to get the parents to mate is wrong. You obviously had to take special steps in order for the parents to breed didnt you? Why not take the same time and get these snakes "over the hump" so to speak. Just because someone who wrote a book says that they do it does not make it the right thing to do. You took on this responsibility in the first place, now see it through. If you have to assist feed, then do it. If you have to force feed, then do that. If you have to force feed the snake forever, that in my opinion is what you must do, no matter what the "burden" is to you. These snakes are in your care now. I suppose I will get a lot of flack for writing this, but this is just one more thing that keeps the herp community from becoming more accepted in the mainstream.

Don't get me wrong, I know that you are obviously struggling with this decision. It can't be easy for you. Its just my opinion. (By the way, I have a hatchling that was born on May 7th that has not eaten on its own yet myself, but I will not give up on it and throw it away)

Scott

Posted by: h0mersimps0n at Thu Aug 21 08:00:23 2003 [ Report Abuse ] [ Email Message ]

Hey everyone, after my most desperate attempts to get the last 3 snakes (11 successfuly eaters out of that clutch of 14) of my June 14th clutch to eat I've decided the most humane thing (after consulting the corn snake manual too) is to put them down. It's like Kathy says, these snakes were just not meant to be and any forced effort to encourage feeding would only encourage the passing of those lousy genes and propriation of non-eating snakes. It just isn't "in the cards for these guys"...

thoughts, ideas most welcome...