Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello everyone,

This is my first time to these forums and I was wondering if you could help me out. I live near Orlando, Florida (in between Orlando and Titusville) on a little over an acre of property. There is swamp and pine scrub all around us and I'm used to dealing with snakes both in and around my home. With the exception of a lone cottonmouth that wandered into our pond, every snake we've dealt with has been non-venomous (and for that I'm thankful). My husband and I are very careful to examine most snakes we find (since most of them seem to be of the ringneck, garter or racer variety) and we've only had to kill that one nasty little cottonmouth, until today.

I opened my garage door and put my toddler into his car seat. As I'm coming around the back of the car, I notice something small coiled behind it -- a snake. It kind of freaked me out because it was in my garage anyway, but its behavior really scared me. It was about a foot to 1.5 ft in length with a white underbelly and a grayish body with reddish-brown blotches (edged by black). It shook its' tail and reared up at me, hissing the whole time. I was going to try and throw a bucket on it, but it lunged at me. I've never seen a non-venomous snake react so violently and stubbornly before. It absolutely refused to budge, just curled up and hissed at me. I didn't hear any rattle. I'm not the best to judge by the head and I certainly wasn't getting close enough to look in its eyes, so the behavior was enough to prompt me to kill it. I feel bad about having to do it, especially if I misidentified it... but I can't seem to find out what it is. Corn Snakes seem to be much redder in color and Mole Kingsnakes seem to be much too rare, so I was wondering if anyone here could offer assistance.

So, just a few more things... It didn't flatten itself up or try to make itself appear to be a cobra... it did raise itself off the floor from its curled position. It was never cornered (actually I was kind of hoping it would just run off into the grass), but no matter how close I came to smacking it with the shovel it didn't budge.

Hopefully this is enough, thanks for all the help!!!

Jen

This is a picture of the back:

Here's a close-up of its head and back:

Here's a good shot of the snake (not the whole thing), complete with full head shot:

Here's a picture of the underbelly:

Congradulations, you just killed either a juvenile coachwhip or a juvenile racer. Both are not venomous and are rabid eaters of rodents and grasshoppers. As adults they don't have that kind of pattern and are easy to tell apart.

It's obvious that the snake wasn't venomous. First look and see if its a rattlesnake, if its not then look and see if its a copperhead, if its not then look and see if its a cottonmouth, if its not then its not dangerous. Also, most snakes in North America will rattle their tails when threatened. Its a defense mechanism to bring attention to the tail (tails can be spared).
Coachwhips/Racers do not like to be killed and are very "spirited". In their minds (and usually in reality) any contact with a larger animal leads to dying. That's why you got such a reaction. Even if you meant it no harm its still going to try and bluff you. They really hate dying.

They are the fastest snakes in the US and probably the most intelligent.Also my favorite! I'm attaching a pic of a beautiful coachwhip.

pic

well it is a racer but i realy realy realy thank you for trying to save this snake is every body was atleast like you than than and had repect for snakes i would be a happy man . i am sorry about you killing a nonvenomous snake next time especaly if its that small scoop it up with a shovel and set it behind your yard

Well, it's my bad then. I feel bad about killing it since it's a racer -- personally, I've only seen black racers around these parts (I have a great picture of one relaxing on my front porch) so I wouldn't have identified that as a racer right away.

Oh well, thanks for the pictures!

Jen

just to add to your info, most snakebites occur when people try to kill or handle snakes, so just think about that in the future

WES

There are just two problems -- the first, he was in my way. Until he moved, I couldn't get to my car door. The second being he was in my garage. If I could get around him and leave, what guarantee do I have that he will leave my garage.

I have a two-year old, very inquisitive boy who wouldn't hesitate to approach a snake in our garage if it stayed. Should I let it stay in my garage and potentially injure my two-year old? He's a bright child but it's almost impossible to teach kids that age about true danger.

Personally, I'll take a hit if I can guarantee I can kill the darned thing.

Also, what should I do about the snakes that (somehow) get into my home? Should I just leave them there so that either my cats can kill them (which happened to one poor juvenile racer) or so they can kill my cats? Should I call some animal rescue service and wait for hours (all the while doing what with the snake in my kitchen?)? Should I pay $100 to have someone come out for every single snake I see?

No thanks, I'll take my chances and either move them if I know they're non-venomous or kill them if I'm unsure. That's the benefit of having a long-handled, flat-bladed shovel.

I don't mess with snakes for fun and giggles. I don't harass snakes in my yard, I leave them alone... but the second they slither into my house, all bets are off and they'll probably lose their life.

Jen

please even if it is venomous dont kill it! thats a great way to get bitten ! and when the snakes dead it can still bite! just go to a local petstore and talk to them and ask if theres anyone who could help remove the snake thed be glad to

o and i hope i didnt attack you to much i no that discourages alot of people from the fourms but we just love herps so much and hate to see them get killed but once agin thanks for trying to let it live

Nah, I'm not offended... It's just the central fact in a mother's life: if we feel our young are in any way endangered, we will attack. I felt this snake (chilling in my garage) posed a danger and I neutralized it.

Now that I know that many snakes mimic rattlers, I'll know not to be too scared of ones that shake their tails.

I like snakes -- especially racers -- since they're pretty beneficial out here in the forest and I don't have the philosophy of "any snake is a dead snake." But I won't hesitate to kill one if I feel threatened. It's the same way with dogs -- if a pit bull charged my son, I'd try my best to kill it.

Anyway, thanks to everyone for their answers

Jen

Jen: Here's a site you might want to take a look at. I can't add much more...the above comments about cover it. ~~Greg~~
Florida's Venomous Snakes

Thanks for the site, I'll definitely bookmark it and keep it on hand.

there is really no reason to kill it, you could have just as easily swept it away with a broom.

why did you need to kill the snake in your pond? ther are things you could do to kep them out in the future, all he wanted wasa meal and a drink.

theres almost always a way to remove a snake without harming it, next time try and tink of one before killing it. and unless its in your home it will probably just move on
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jake

my addiction:
0.2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
0.1 amelenistic corn snake (maizy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)
1.0 albino cal king (zeus)
0.0.1 wc garter (zim)
hybrid breeders association
hybrid haven

Just a couple thoughts. One, while anyone who cares about herps is a GOOD person, why are so few able to spell or construct a grammatically correct sentence? Has education in America just gone to hell? I only ask this because I'd like to think my fellow herpers are at the tops of education, not at the bottom where simple sentence structure seems unattainable. Man, reading some posts make me wonder what our schools produce.
Not trying to be mean. Just aggravated. How can this country be competitive when our schools can't produce kids that can even write a respective sentence?

BTW, my onery post isn't directed towards this particular thread, just to posts in general. As a long time keeper, I can't help but associate poor communicative skills with poor husbandry. Generally speaking, it's youngsters on-line & into something new & in so many cases they aren't matured enough for the long haul. I could say so much more but I'll shut up.
Love Herps!
Dan.

its not that i cant put together a sentence, i just miss a key sometimes.

especialy when im holding my 6 week old son.

i think you spelled ornery wrong, you spelled it onery.

i also notice when people spell things wrong, i dont think its because were stupid, i think some of us arent that good with a keyboard and dont check spelling before posting. i know i suck at typing.
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jake

my addiction:
0.2 normal ball pythons (lazlo and izzy)
0.1 amelenistic corn snake (maizy)
0.1 blizzard corn (blizz)
1.0 albino cal king (zeus)
0.0.1 wc garter (zim)
hybrid breeders association
hybrid haven

Just a couple thoughts.

Do you mean a "couple of thoughts"?

Not trying to be mean. Just aggravated. How can this country be competitive when our schools can't produce kids that can even write a respective sentence?

Certainly you mean a respectable sentence - which means "worthy of respect" or "suitable or good enough to be seen or used", rather than respective, which means "pertaining individually or severally to each of a number of persons, things, etc.; particular". Two very different words with very different meanings.

And I might just point out that "Not trying to be mean. Just aggravated." is two grammatically disasterous sentence fragments in a row, unless you accept the colloquial habit of the pronoun and its associated conjugate of the verb "to be" when using the present participle as standard written English.

I don't disagree that we as a nation are rather poor writers, but if you are going to throw stones, make sure you aren't living in a glass house!

We all make mistakes! (I'm sure you can find mine in here if you look!)

Respectfully, respectively, or whatever the term is,
Chris
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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

See, I can't even type that simple response without making major mistakes. I guess pobody's nerfect?

Just a couple thoughts.

Do you mean a "couple of thoughts"?

Not trying to be mean. Just aggravated. How can this country be competitive when our schools can't produce kids that can even write a respective sentence?

Certainly you mean a respectable sentence - which means "worthy of respect" or "suitable or good enough to be seen or used", rather than respective, which means "pertaining individually or severally to each of a number of persons, things, etc.; particular". Two very different words with very different meanings.

And I might just point out that "Not trying to be mean. Just aggravated." is two grammatically disasterous sentence fragments in a row, unless you accept the colloquial habit of dropping the pronoun and its associated conjugate of the verb "to be" when using the present participle as standard written English.

I don't disagree that we as a nation are rather poor writers, but if you are going to throw stones, make sure you aren't living in a glass house!

We all make mistakes, paticulary in the casual conversations of this forum! (I'm sure you can find mine in here if you look!)

Respectfully, respectively, or whatever the term is,

Chris

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoatnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer be in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a taotl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm.

Tihs is bcuseae the huamn mnid deos not raed ervey lteter by istlef, but the wrod as a wlohe. Amzanig huh? yaeh and I awlyas tghuhot slpeling was ipmorantt!
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amery. corn snake (Morgan LaFay)
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (TBD)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
0.0.1 betta fish (Captain Morgan)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)

LOL!! You guys got me on that one!! Who am I to point a finger?
Some posts are truly a mess, though, & I felt the need to bark up the nearest tree I could find. Dang me! Fortunately, the need didn't last long...
BTW, I seldom post but have to say, this forum has become one of my favorites. Good group of folks here.
Dan.

This is an honest question: what can I do to keep a cottonmouth out of my pond? It's a 25 foot, circular pond with fish and turtles. I try my best to keep tall grass or weeds growing around the edges of it by trimming weekly.

The reason I killed it was because it almost bit my son, who was completely minding his own business. We were walking around the edge of the pond and the snake was (apparently) half in and half out of the water. I didn't notice it because, at the time, I was pointing out a turtle in the middle of the pond. The darned thing went after us because we walked past it (it was a younger cottonmouth, but I wouldn't necessarily say juvenile). My son likes to play around the pond's edge and I worried that it would strike him just for playing nearby. There's nothing good that can happen when you mix a toddler boy (even one who knows not to go into water) and a venomous snake. I'm all for natural consequences to actions, but that's going a bit far afield.

To be honest, I've never really thought of calling a snake handler for removal... but I don't really want to spend $80 to remove a cottonmouth from my pond -- I've come to the realization that anytime anyone comes out to my house, there will be an $80 service fee attached (AC, well, septic, pool, electrician, plumber, etc). If they'll come out for free or, heck, even $30 I'd happily pay them... but I'm not going to spend $80 to remove something I can take care of myself.

Anyway, your reply has me intrigued, how can I keep the silly things out?

Thanks,

Jen

looks like the snake was the one needin the help- im not understanding why you would kill ANY snake- venomous or not-

I hate to retype a post, so I will refer to my previous comments on this issue.....
these comments.....

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Chris Harrison
San Antonio, Texas

Thanks, Chris. That's actually exactly why I came to these forums. I didn't mean to upset anyone, I just wanted to know what snake it was in the event of a repeat sighting.

Jen

A standard leaf rake makes a perfect snake removal tool. The handle is long enough to keep you away from the head, should the snake be venomous or just very defensive, and the plastic prongs are close enough together to support most snakes, even small ones. Just scoop under the snake, carry it to a safe spot and slide it off. It will almost certainly crawl away, grateful for not having been mashed or decapitated.

A suggestion, perhaps?

I apologize for offending anyone, and I can understand why snake lovers would not want to see a dead snake... but...

This forum is entitled "Snakes -- What Kind?" and at the top, with the introduction, there is absolutely no information on it being a forum for only live snakes. What would you say to splitting up this forum into two sections -- one for live identification and one for dead? That way people who didn't want to see a mutilated snake wouldn't have to help in the identification, but those who wanted to educate in a kind and helpful manner could peruse at their will. If you can't create a new forum, what about amending your introductory paragraph to include details about how dead snake listing is not permitted, nor appreciated.

I'm not even sure if it's possible, but you might want to look into it. The title was enough to make me think I could post these pictures for an easy identification from experienced people -- I wanted to see if I should leave the snake alone in the future. If I had known how people would react, I would have never posted here.

Jen

You will most likely always get spiteful responses on forums, especially if you yourself are not an expert on the forum's topic. Try to ignore them as and don't take them personal! I find what's more annoying to me are the people who refuse to use punctuation and ignore all grammer rules. I know my posts aren't perfect but at least they can be understood!

The cottonmouth showing up in your pond:

First, are you sure its a cottonmouth? The reason I ask is because the vast majority of water snakes are not cottonmouths. I would say 99% of water snakes you come across will be harmless. Also cottonmouths are nocturnal, shy, slow, and not usually overly aggressive. The non-venomous water snakes belonging to "nerodia" (there are numerous different kinds in the south) are usually SUPER aggressive. So if it was out during the day, around where people live, and defensive it sounds like it might be nerodia.

But if it was a cottonmouth they are pretty easy to capture due to their slowness. A large bucket and stick/broom will work well. On the other hand if you are nervous about snakes then it probably shouldn't be attempted unless the snake is really small. I wouldn't blame you for not trying.

Now keeping snakes out of your pond...I can't really think of any way to keep it snake free! Any permanent water source with the lingering smell of amphibians and/or fish is going to attract water snakes. The only advice I would say is to harrass the crap out of any snake that shows up in or around the pond. Maybe if they are threatened enough they won't come around anymore.

Oh this, I'm 100% sure. I've lived over half my life in Florida and have extensive experience with cottonmouths since we got camping quite a bit. The markings and facial shape were pinpoint, but the clincher was the fact that when it opened its mouth, it was the most pristine white.

I think the only reason it acted that way was because we scared it as much as it scared us -- but I've always heard of cottonmouths being a very defensive and stubborn snake. I've actually seen a cottonmouth (who was trying to cross the road... is there a joke here?) strike a passing car because the car invaded the snake's space.

The odd thing is that it was the first cottonmouth in our pond, ever. I think the only reason it came is that we had one of the few remaining bodies of water in the drought -- now that the usual ponds and canals are back, I doubt we'd see one again. I hope anyway.

Thanks

Jen

The only way to keep snakes out of your pond is to not have a pond. Sorry, but its the truth. Remember, you owe it to yourself and your children from now on to be able to identify the species of snakes that visit your yard and home. It's been said once, but I will repeat : approaching a venomous snake in an attempt to kill it puts you in more danger of a bite than if it was just left on its own.

Yes, there's always a chance of stumbling upon a venomous snake in your garage, in the yard in tall grass where you cant see it, or hiding between your garbage cans. It's inevitable. As humans encroach upon the habitat of these animals, confrontations like this become more common. You will do what you think is right, but please educate yourself about the native reptiles and amphibians so you do not have to post pictures of dead snakes and rile up the reptile lovers here.

Snakes will always visit your pond, but keep the grass cut and make sure there are no boards or other debris laying about for them to hide under.