Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Everyone talks about the top 10 venomous, but I would like to know what are the 10 less venomous viperids and crotalids. Anyone know? I am talking about how dangerous is a bite of a large adult of the species, not proportional venom dosis.

well im assuming your not talking about rear fang?
so copperheads pigmy rattlesnake sidewinder theres some dont no all ten though

no colubrids or elapids here
I thought copperheads are more dangerous

What about the old world hots?

copperheads have a reletivley mild bite but are still dangerous

american copperheads aren't so bad (still not a day in the park), australian copperheads are a bit worse. a lot of times, we forget to make the distinction.

This thread is ridiculous. Ignorance, ignorance, ignorance. Sure, a copperhead may not pose the same risk as a large crotaline, however, some of the worst bite cases I have personally seen involved copperheads (many loss of limbs, permanent scarring, grotesque necrotic tissue damage, etc.). And, people have died from the bite of a copperhead. But, I suppose they are suitable for many of the uninformed folks who want to get a "mildly and not so dangerous" snake like a copperhead. Ugh.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>american copperheads aren't so bad (still not a day in the park), australian copperheads are a bit worse. a lot of times, we forget to make the distinction.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

where did i put that elitist spray....hmmmm

and ironically you corrected his spelling then misspelled "has" lol. totally uncalled for and i'm sure you see what MAY have happened to the thread starter.

i must have overlooked it, but where did anyone state that they're not venomous? like it or not, they are less venomous than most of the snakes in the mentioned categories. they produce less venom and have a lower toxicity. those are facts backed up by every type of test done on these animals. like it or not, they are less dangerous/deadly/venomous than most other vipers.

are they good starter snakes? could be. depends on the person's abilities and frame of mind, not their age, income, or how much a/v they have stashed in the fridge.

why are you so angry all the time? you think that helps a damn thing? lighten up and share that wealth of knowledge in a way that isn't 100% condesecending.

you are NOT the only person fit to keep hots. there were many before you and there will be many after you.

I replied to your email but since you made this public, your comments below just summarize why our hobby is in big trouble. All I'll say is that they are way off base, unwarranted, and full of ignorance. Angry? Hardly, I'm probably one of the happiest and content people on earth - I enjoy each day and how couldn't I, I work with the most amazing animals on earth and run my own herp zoo and if my comments come off as "angry" it's only because I am passionate about herps, our hobby and my profession and I won't want to see idiots (I'm NOT calling you directly an idiot before you get defensive) ruin it for the folks who deserve to enjoy their hobby w/out government restrictions. I'll just leave it at that.

>>where did i put that elitist spray....hmmmm
>>
>>and ironically you corrected his spelling then misspelled "has" lol. totally uncalled for and i'm sure you see what MAY have happened to the thread starter.
>>
>>i must have overlooked it, but where did anyone state that they're not venomous? like it or not, they are less venomous than most of the snakes in the mentioned categories. they produce less venom and have a lower toxicity. those are facts backed up by every type of test done on these animals. like it or not, they are less dangerous/deadly/venomous than most other vipers.
>>
>>are they good starter snakes? could be. depends on the person's abilities and frame of mind, not their age, income, or how much a/v they have stashed in the fridge.
>>
>>why are you so angry all the time? you think that helps a damn thing? lighten up and share that wealth of knowledge in a way that isn't 100% condesecending.
>>
>>you are NOT the only person fit to keep hots. there were many before you and there will be many after you.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Is the herp zoo actually yours? Do you own it or are you more of a "manager that can make bigger decisions"?

Blaze Garrett

That's a great question. Anyone who has attempted to start up their own zoos knows how expensive it is and many never get off the ground because of the initial start up costs (insurance alone can be astronomical). So, when I founded the Wildlife Discovery Center in 1994 I did so by going before the Lake Forest City Council and Park and Rec Board to make a proposal to start a new major area of programming called Wildlife Conservation Education under the umbrella of the city of lake forest. At the time, the LF Rec Center underwent an expansion project that left the old fitness center vacated. I decided to make my plea and the council gave me the green light to "go ahead and we give you our blessings....BUT, no tax dollars will go towards making this work." I busted my hiney to develop many conservation education programs that revolved around herps. We put together a modest collection of herps and things just snow balled from there (in a good way). So, in short:

1) No, I do not "own" the WDC. I'm the founder/curator and call the shots. I do have a boss and I report to our Superintendent of Parks/Rec and she's been a fantastic boss; she stays out of my way and give me complete freedom to dictate the direction that we are taking.

2) I'm a curator but my role is varied: curator, animal keeper (mostly hots), manager, supervisor, and in many instances, janitor.....my staff and I all help out wherever needed and no one has big heads around here.

3) The advantage of having my facility under a city government are many but include: having access to capital equipment funds, having insurance paid for and drawing a nice salary with benefits, having all utilities at the WDC paid for in addition to normal operational costs.

Hope that answers them. You can get more info about us at:
www.cityoflakeforest.com (parks and rec) AND:
www.girconservation.com

>>Is the herp zoo actually yours? Do you own it or are you more of a "manager that can make bigger decisions"?
>>
>>Blaze Garrett
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Rob,

Though I tend to agree with you alot of the time, you do act stuck up a lot. You say you’re not a professional yet you sure act like you are 90 percent of the time. I definitely am no professional but I know more then you think and you have talked down to me in the past on these forums and others based on something as unimportant as misspelled words and erroneously placed punctuation.

You and I see eye to eye on the aspect of idiots in this hobby, AV, public stunts of idiocy etc but as you always say, you do this for a living. Quite frankly, why do you care what happens to the hobby? You act like you’re above it most of the time. With that being said I see why when so many uneducated, misinformed people keep jumping into it.

Though i tend to agree that this post is irrelevant, its a public forum. If you dislike the thread dont read/post on it.

I will not take anything away from your ability as keeper. You do good work and are a lucky man. Just dont throw that in our face everytime you post.

Oh and btw, there is a lesson to learn here. Politeness gets alot more positive reaction then belittling or acting holier then thou. This is a lesson I to need to understand. I can be just as much of a (enter explicit word here) when i get riled. That is a good thing, its passion as you say. However, lets save it for the ones that truly deserve it, the venomoiders, rattlesnake round uppers and people who go out and buy a Mamba for their first venomous snake.

Best regards,
Jeremy

I should bite my tongue but I'll answer your questions and make a few comments before closing this thread (your original comments are in lower case, mine are in upper just to be clear):

Though I tend to agree with you alot of the time, you do act stuck up a lot. HOW? PLEASE GIVE EXAMPLES BEFORE SPOUTING OFF. WHAT IS THIS, ROMPER ROOM? You say you’re not a professional yet you sure act like you are 90 percent of the time. WHEN DID I SAY THAT? I OPENLY ADMIT THAT I AM A PROFESSIONAL AND A HOBBYIST....WHAT I DON'T ADMIT IS THAT I AM AN EXPERT BECAUSE I'M ALWAYS LEARNING. 90%?....DO YOU HAVE SOME VAST AMOUNT OF DATA TO BACK THAT UP? I definitely am no professional but I know more then you think and you have talked down to me in the past on these forums and others based on something as unimportant as misspelled words and erroneously placed punctuation. I DON'T REALLY CARE WHAT YOU KNOW, I'M GLAD YOU KNOW ENOUGH TO MAKE THAT COMMENT. HOW DID I TALK DOWN TO YOU IN THE PAST...ONCE AGAIN, GIVE EXAMPLES BEFORE SPOUTING OFF. IF YOU TOOK CERTAIN THINGS PERSONALLY, THEN REALIZE THAT THIS IS A PUBLIC FORUM AND EVERYONE IS ALLOWED TO VOICE THEIR OPINIONS IF DONE RESPECTFULLY (IF YOU TOOK MY COMMENTS IN A DISRESPECTFUL MANNER, I APOLOGIZE BUT YOU NEED TO PROVIDE SOME EXAMPLES). I'D BE HAPPY TO TALK TO YOU OFF LINE ABOUT IT.
>>
>>You and I see eye to eye on the aspect of idiots in this hobby, AV, public stunts of idiocy etc but as you always say, you do this for a living. THAT'S GOOD TO HEAR. Quite frankly, why do you care what happens to the hobby? You act like you’re above it most of the time. With that being said I see why when so many uneducated, misinformed people keep jumping into it. WHY DO I CARE? NOT A BRIGHT QUESTION BUT I'LL ENTERTAIN YOU WITH AN ANSWER: BECAUSE I AM ALSO A HOBBYIST AND WAS A HOBBYIST BEFORE DOING THIS PROFESSIONALLY. ADDITIONALLY, I HAVE MANY CLOSE FRIENDS WHO ARE HOBBYISTS AND I WANT TO SEE THEM BE ALLOWED TO CONTINUE ENJOYING THEIR PASSION FOR WORKING WITH VENOMOUS HERPS. YOU SAY THAT I ACT LIKE I AM ABOVE "IT" MOST OF THE TIME....GIVE EXAMPLES! I SIMPLY SHARE MY EXPERIENCES AND KNOWLEDGE WITH OTHER PEOPLE AND FOR THE MOST PART, THEY HAVE EXPRESSED A GREAT DEAL OF THANKS FOR MY WILLINGNESS TO ANSWER QUESTIONS JUST LIKE I AM APPRECIATIVE OF OTHER EXPERIENCED FOLKS WHO DO THE SAME. IF I SAID SOMETHING THAT OFFENDED YOU THEN BE GROWN UP ENOUGH TO CONFRONT ME AS A MATURE ADULT. OTHERS HAVE AND I RESPECT THEM FOR THAT.
>>
>>Though i tend to agree that this post is irrelevant, its a public forum. If you dislike the thread dont read/post on it. BINGO....IT'S A PUBLIC FORUM AND IF I WANT TO RESPOND, IT'S MY RIGHT IN A PUBLIC FORUM TO DO SO. IF YOU DON'T LIKE WHAT I WRITE, THEN DON'T READ IT! SEE THE CIRCLE REASONING HERE? IN THE END, I COME HERE BECAUSE I ENJOY CONVERSING WITH OTHER KEEPERS AND HAVE PICKED UP SOME GREAT INFO HERE. FROM TIME TO TIME I READ STUFF THAT WARRANTS AN ANSWER BECAUSE SOMEONE NEW TO THIS HOBBY MAY GET THE WRONG IDEA ABOUT SOMETHING AND END UP DOING SOMETHING VERY STUPID BASED ON WHAT THEY READ HERE.
>>
>>I will not take anything away from your ability as keeper. You do good work and are a lucky man. Just dont throw that in our face everytime you post. WHOSE THROWING IT IN YOUR FACES? NO SUBSTANCE AT ALL TO THAT COMMENT.
>>
>>Oh and btw, there is a lesson to learn here. Politeness gets alot more positive reaction then belittling or acting holier then thou. This is a lesson I to need to understand. I can be just as much of a (enter explicit word here) when i get riled. That is a good thing, its passion as you say. However, lets save it for the ones that truly deserve it, the venomoiders, rattlesnake round uppers and people who go out and buy a Mamba for their first venomous snake. HUH? BELITTLING? ACTING HOLIER THAN THOU? C'MON, YOU NEED TO GROW UP JUST A BIT (AND ONCE AGAIN, PROVIDE EXAMPLES, OTHERWISE, YOUR OPINIONS ARE BASED ON ZERO EVIDENCE). I WOULDN'T BE WHERE I AM TODAY IF I WAS BELITTLING OR ACTING HOLIER THAN THOU (OOPS, DOES THAT MEAN I'M THROWING SOMETHING AT YOUR FACE?...SORRY ABOUT THAT). WE DON'T HAVE TO AGREE ON ALL ISSES AND IF THERE'S SOME THINGS "WE" DON'T SEE EYE TO EYE ON, GUESS WHAT, THAT'S OKAY. I ENJOY CONVERSING WITH FOLKS WHO SHARE DIFFERENCES OF OPINIONS - IT'S HEALTHY AND ITS WHAT MAKES US ALL UNIQUE. I AM OPINIONATED, I ADMIT THAT AND IF OTHERS WHO SHARE A CERTAIN LEVEL OF EXPERIENCES WANT TO VOICE THEIR OPINIONS, WE ALL WELCOME THAT AND WHEN I'M WRONG, I'M HAPPY TO ADMIT IT.

JEREMY, I DON'T KNOW YOU PERSONALLY BUT I'M SURE YOU'RE A NICE GUY WHO MEANS WELL AND IS WILLING TO LEARN. HOPEFULLY, THERE'S SOME SILVER LINING TO SOME OF THE CONTROVERSIES OR DISAGREEMENTS THAT YOU PERCEIVE TO EXIST HERE. I WISH YOU NOTHING BUT THE BEST.

ROB
>>
>>Best regards,
>>Jeremy
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

n/p.

Jeremy,
As I've met Rob personally and been given the guided tour of his excellent facility, I feel I'm qualified to comment on this thread. Elitist? Wrong. Stuck up? No. A professional? Most definitely. Fun to be on the receiving end when he lowers the boom on someone? Hardly, but the vast majority of the time he's right, IMO.

Bill Huseth
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Venomous snakes---best hobby on earth!
Bill Huseth

Easy there Rob, no need to jump all over everyone for putting in their two cents on a thread that doesn't happen to involve fighting about the impending doom of the hobby. Maybe if this forum involved more threads like this - threads of mildly entertaining substance rather than pointless bickering - it would be more productive. But no, apparently a return to the status quo is in order...

To return to the question, I think it's somewhat interesting. I'm not taking it as you're wanting to know what are the least dangerous viperids and crotalids so that you can recklessly handle them. I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to seek an answer like that. I do imagine copperheads and pygmies certainly rank among the less dangerous native US crotalines, but I couldn't speculate very well worldwide. I believe some of the European Vipera are a bit less dangerous than some, and certainly the Central American Bothriechis aren't as toxic as many. I guess a visit to Dr. Fry's website would be in order to get a better idea based on LD50s.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

Oh, I know, but my only concern is that there are so many young folks jumping into the hobby w/out giving it a lot of thought. Many "young-ins" peruse these forums and if there's even a hint of "that venomous snake can't hurt you" they'll run off to the next swap and buy one. It happens, I've seen it. I'm sure the original post was harmless but I was just trying to make sure that folks wanting a pet copperhead knew what they were capable of doing. That's all.

>>Easy there Rob, no need to jump all over everyone for putting in their two cents on a thread that doesn't happen to involve fighting about the impending doom of the hobby. Maybe if this forum involved more threads like this - threads of mildly entertaining substance rather than pointless bickering - it would be more productive. But no, apparently a return to the status quo is in order...
>>
>>To return to the question, I think it's somewhat interesting. I'm not taking it as you're wanting to know what are the least dangerous viperids and crotalids so that you can recklessly handle them. I doubt anyone would be stupid enough to seek an answer like that. I do imagine copperheads and pygmies certainly rank among the less dangerous native US crotalines, but I couldn't speculate very well worldwide. I believe some of the European Vipera are a bit less dangerous than some, and certainly the Central American Bothriechis aren't as toxic as many. I guess a visit to Dr. Fry's website would be in order to get a better idea based on LD50s.
>>-----
>>Chance Duncan
>>www.rivervalleyexotics.com
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

In light of that addendum then, your post wasn't out of line. I completely agree that many people do get into this hobby without knowing fully the risks involved. A few years ago, many here argued against my entering the hobby because of my particular interest in elapids. Were they wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Fortunately, I've survived with a clean record (so far, *knocks on wood*). I have since seen other instances where people obtained extremely dangerous snakes and didn't have a clue as to proper care, much less have the ability to handle them in a safe manner. Such is the nature of the beast (pardon the pun) in a 'hobby' such as ours.

So again to return to the earlier post Rob, since I know you do most certainly have a wealth of knowledge and experience with many venomous animals: which truly venomous snake(s) would you rank among some of the safer captives? I've seen you recommend some of the smaller US Crotalus, such as lepidus, as decent firsts. Disregarding the AV availability issues then for a minute, what exotic species, viperid or elapid, would you consider safer than others? I'm always up for getting opinions such as these from some of the long standing members of the community.
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

Your question is one that is hard to answer because there's many factors involved. The keeper has to have a passion for keeping a certain species, not keep a species because its recommended by some "expert" (and I don't consider myself one). Otherwise, you'll lose interest and the animal will get suboptimal care. But lets assume that you are passionate about all venomous herps, here are a few "exotic" venomous herps that are fairly easy to manage and keep but still demand the utmost in respect and careful handling (and I am not necessarily recommending them but these are animals I personally enjoy working with and find them fairly easy to work with):
- eyelash vipers
- Coral cobras
- Cerastes cerastes
- If there was a commercia A/V for Atheris, I'd recommend them.
- some of the smaller species of Bitis

>>In light of that addendum then, your post wasn't out of line. I completely agree that many people do get into this hobby without knowing fully the risks involved. A few years ago, many here argued against my entering the hobby because of my particular interest in elapids. Were they wrong? Maybe, maybe not. Fortunately, I've survived with a clean record (so far, *knocks on wood*). I have since seen other instances where people obtained extremely dangerous snakes and didn't have a clue as to proper care, much less have the ability to handle them in a safe manner. Such is the nature of the beast (pardon the pun) in a 'hobby' such as ours.
>>
>>So again to return to the earlier post Rob, since I know you do most certainly have a wealth of knowledge and experience with many venomous animals: which truly venomous snake(s) would you rank among some of the safer captives? I've seen you recommend some of the smaller US Crotalus, such as lepidus, as decent firsts. Disregarding the AV availability issues then for a minute, what exotic species, viperid or elapid, would you consider safer than others? I'm always up for getting opinions such as these from some of the long standing members of the community.
>>-----
>>Chance Duncan
>>www.rivervalleyexotics.com
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Thank you for your opinion. Your list lines our pretty well with those I consider the 'safer' exotic vens, not taking into account AV availability of course, as you said.

I'm glad you made the point about not getting a certain animal just because it's recommended by others. I made that point as well a long time ago about copperheads and had people jump all over me. To me it made perfect sense though: why get something you have absolutely no interest in just to gain experience? You're likely to either provide it with suboptimal care, or bore of it very quickly and have an even stronger drive to move on to new things. Experience is very important, but experience with the animals in which you actually have a long standing interest is even more important. Of course I'm not arguing for a brand new keeper to get a mamba as his/her first venomous snake, but the old copperhead standby isn't always applicable. I won't even get into the fact that personally, I find many elapids easier to control than most of the copperheads I've pulled off the road!
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Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

Thanks for the repplies. In fact, besides I like venomous snakes, I do not plan to keep them, at least for a long time. I I would not like to use bare hand for handling them neither. I was just curious to know about less venomous solenogliphs. I hear that these snakes are dangerous all the time, but as are exceptions in everything in nature, just checking it out.
Thanks again

for nothing. I do not personally keep any hots but love observing them in the field. I have kept herps for the better part of ten years and at this point in time don't see myself owning any hots for at least another ten. Theres a big difference between dealing with them every other week when I go herping and dealing with them every day. In a perfect world I would have no problem feeding and cleaning the cages but what happens when they get stuck eyecaps, sick or need other attention that requires more hands on methods? At this point in time I would rather see them maybe hook one or two take my pictures then let them on thier way. I'd prefer to be able to put the tongs down then have them be a perminet part of my body!
Just my .02,
Nate

A man died from a copperhead bite in Texas last year I bet he would have something to say about that.Oh I lost a finger last year to a copperhead as it rotted away in icu for a week I thaught WOW this is not to bad . When I woke up from surgery I said pritty mild.Oh that 50,000 dollor bill I recieved not too toxic.LOL. I am sometimes amazed at what someone who has never been hit will say. All front fanged venomous snakes are extremly dangerous, pit vipers and true vipers all produce toxic venom some just dont produce much.MY 2 CENTS!

A man in Texas died last year of a Copperhead bite. I bet he might like to reply to that. Oh, I lost a finger last year to a Copperhead bite. For a week, while I was in ICU, watching my finger rot away, I thought that this is mild. Then when I got out of surgery, I thought this isn't too bad. Finally, the $50,000 bill, I got, I thought not too toxic.LOL! All front fanged snakes are toxic some just produce less venom that is less toxic. I am amazed at what i hear from those who have never been hit by a venomous snake. MY 2 CENTS. THANKS ARCHIE