Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I recently picked up this lesser.
Since I first posted pictures, I have been told it is not a lesser but in fact a light mojave.
I need your honest opinons because I did not want a light mojave and paid for a lesser.

Lessers vary in colour alot and i wouldnt say that was a mojave, even though they are probably closely related morphs it just hasnt got the right yellow dorsal stripe and dark background to be a mojave.

thats my opinion anyway!
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You all talk Balls,I talk Royals ;0)
www.alpharoyals.co.uk

do you know the breeder? do they actually own a mojave to have bred with?
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You all talk Balls,I talk Royals ;0)
www.alpharoyals.co.uk

Steve,

I would have to say (and is only my opinion) that animal appears to be a Mojave and not a lesser. While Lesser's do vary the coloration on that animal is more close to a Mojave.
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....I would rather have a Bottle in front of me.....than a Frontal Lobotomy....

Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.com
www.rkreptiles.net
www.ballpythonmorphs.net

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I want everyone to know that this is not a Mojave like he says it is. We do not own any Mojaves! The coloration comes from the mother as she resembles an axanthic which I informed of. We also sent pics before shipping. Everyone knows that we have never sold any Mojaves. Here are pics of the father.
Thanks, Debbie

Just curious, is that a wild caught or import lesser? It looks like it has way different colors than RDR lessers and that baby is super nice. I'd be happy with it.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

She is a CB Lesser that we produced. The mother looks like an axanthic. She always has produced different looking everything. He probably will breed this lesser to something and get something way cool! I think she is awsome looking also and we have more out of the same clutch.
Debbie

I was referring to the father lesser about being wild-caught or ch. That baby is super nice. Like I said, I wouldn't turn it away at the door, lol.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

Here is the photo of dad.
Debbie

>>Here is the photo of dad.
>>Debbie
>>

He is sweet looking with the banded key looking pattern going on...and bright!
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Charles Glaspie

well I must have something going on with my monitor as I just looked at the pic on a different monitor and I agree it is definitely a lesser. My other monitor is very dark and the coloration made it look like a Mojave which it is obviously not so. It is a gorgeous lesser with some awesome blushing. I appologize about that Debbie.
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....I would rather have a Bottle in front of me.....than a Frontal Lobotomy....

Rob Trenor
RK Reptiles
www.rkreptiles.com
www.rkreptiles.net
www.ballpythonmorphs.net

_____

No problem Rob!! She certainly is different! All of the snakes out of that female always look different.
Thanks, Debbie

I was starting to get worried Rob. LOL Peace....
From the Ghetto... A FUNKY LESSER......... PEACE....
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Ghetto Reptiles
At a garage near you!!!
Jason...

>>I want everyone to know that this is not a Mojave like he says it is. We do not own any Mojaves! The coloration comes from the mother as she resembles an axanthic which I informed of. We also sent pics before shipping. Everyone knows that we have never sold any Mojaves. Here are pics of the father.
>>Thanks, Debbie
>>
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___________________________
www.RoyalGemReptiles.com

Here is a pic of mom..... She has no yellow in her at all.
Thanks, Debbie
Ballistic Morphs

>>Here is a pic of mom..... She has no yellow in her at all.
>>Thanks, Debbie
>>Ballistic Morphs
>>
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___________________________
www.RoyalGemReptiles.com

np

YOu guys need to fix your monitors............

Thats a LESSER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

1000000000000000000000000000%

And to everyone else.....

If you can not tell the difference between a Mojave and a lesser then you need to go back to corn snakes........
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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

They are Completely different in coloration.

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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

nothing wrong with my monitor Lol!
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You all talk Balls,I talk Royals ;0)
www.alpharoyals.co.uk

THANK YOU!! At least someone knows how to recognise one.
Debbie

I don't think that's right. That's like saying a cinny is not a black pastel, yet they are compatible and make a super. As far as I am concerned, a mojave and a lesser are the SAME THING! They may have a different appearence, but their genetics are arguably the same.

There is something between being different mutations of different genes (like albino and axanthic) and being the same mutations of the same gene just from a different line (likely the case with most pastel lines). It's the concept of different mutations of the same gene - alleles.

When we first identify a mutation we generally only know of two versions of the gene involved, the original mutation and the normal version of that gene. For example, there is a mutation of a single gene that when homozygous causes the genetic striped ball python. A heterozygous striped ball python has one copy of that gene with the striped mutation and the other copy of that same gene is normal for striped (i.e. not the stripe mutation). There isn’t just one “normal” gene but rather at least one wild type version of every gene we know from a mutation.

Now while any one animal only has room for two copies of a particular gene (one from mom and one from dad) it's possible that there might be more than two total types of that gene in the entire population. In humans I think the ABO blood type is an example of this. Three different versions of the same gene but each person only has two copies.

Because most all lessers still look consistently different from most all mojaves after generations and generations of outbreeding both lines there are probably fundamental differences in the mutations responsible for each appearance. If the original difference was just other genes in the founders of each line those other genes would be lost pretty quick with outbreeding and you would no longer be able to tell the lines apart. The homozygous versions of the two would also not consistently look different.

However, there are also undeniable similarities in the appearances of lessers and mojaves and their homozygous versions and the white snake they can produce together. These tend to point to some sort of relation between lesser and mojave even if they aren't the exact same thing.

What really proves the nature of the relationship is that when the white snake made from crossing lesser with mojave is bred to normals it produces about 50/50 lessers and mojaves but no normals and no leucistics. With the combination of co-dominant mutations of different genes like the pewter there is the possibility of some normals and some pewters and not just pastel and cinnamon from breeding a pewter to a normal.

There is some possibility that mojave and lesser aren't mutations of the same gene but just two genes that are very close together on the same chromosome but given the similarities between the two I think it's almost certain that they are alleles - DIFFERENT mutations of the SAME gene.

I've seen "lessers" come out of mojaves. Supposedly, the original lesser came from the platty. I agree with the super to normal breeding, BUT you can still get mojaves that look more like a lesser from a mojave/normal breeding, and vice versa. The biggest difference is in how they are bred.

I have to also mention, that with pastel crosses, You can get "superlike" animals, but also breed back the crosses and make even better looking animals.

Anyone here selling corns? Nice Mojo , Steve!
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http://www.jasballpythons.com./

I'm no expert, but it looks more like a lesser than a mojave to me. If I just saw the picture without knowing what it was, I would've said it was a lesser.

To me it seems a little more lesserish but it does have and lack characteristics of both - I guess if you bought if from a trusted source I would trust what the source told you it was.

Good luck.

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Tosha
JET Pythons

Insert Silly Quote Here

sigh. Really nice snake either way!
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Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Someone just sent me this picture of a mojave.
I have now contacted the breeder. There are several hundreds of dollars difference between a mojave and lesser and I turned down a really good deal on a mojave since that is not what I needed for a certain pairing.

You got yourself one of the best looking lessers around..............hands down!!!

Jared
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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

ya, and the dollars are the only difference. Just wait until the lesser gets more and more washed out (as it is starting to be already) and you will see there is no difference.

Steve, We do not own any Mojaves and everyone knows we have never sold any. The mother as I informed you of resembles an axanthic and we did send pics before shipping. Here is a pic of the father.
Thanks, Debbie

Steve,
It is a Lesser without any doubt behind it. You'll notice more as time goes on, but trust me, that's a lesser!
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Ben R.
www.benrenick.com

HEHEHE
Seriously though, Mojave, lesser... doesn't really matter... unless the lesser is proven to have the hidden Gene to produce the PlattyDaddy. (which I believe is one awesome snake!)

It IS a lesser!

Next time Steve, Talk to the breeder first and if still in doubt then e-mail some people for their opinions. We have found it on every forum out there! We try to treat our clients good and we DO NOT rip people off and we don't want people thinking that we do. I think that you are ok with it now and we do value you as a fellow snake hobbiest. Let us know if there is anything we can do for you in the future!!
Debbie

Just like all butters do..............

Buy any lesser..........breed it out.........keep the normal looking sibs............breedm em back to the lesser..........make some cheesecake!!!!

Get unbrainwashed.!!!

Same thing works for the yellowbellies, butters, lessers
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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

Do all lessers carry the "hidden gene"?
surely if the platty daddy is a lesser platinum with the homozygous form of the "hidden gene" then all his offspring are "het" for the gene. But if you breed a lesser to a normal then hatchlings, lesser or normal will only be 50% poss het for the "hidden gene".
just like breeding a het albino to a normal?
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You all talk Balls,I talk Royals ;0)
www.alpharoyals.co.uk

Has anyone other than RDR ever produced a platy?

I just don't see how the genetics could work other than the allele theory that no lesser could have the hidden gene, only the normal line looking offspring from a platy or their decedents down a line with no lesser in it. I don't think it can be hidden in a lesser. Of course I could be wrong but I've not heard an alternative explanation that works.

I also think there is a fundamental difference between the lesser and mojave mutations even if they are mutations of the same gene. I don't think a hidden separate gene is the difference. However, there may well be a little overlap between the extremes of appearance in the two mutations. If this animal had come from a mojave X lesser leucistic so that there was a chance that it was a mojave could you really be sure? Probably most of the time but there might be a few on the fence.

if all lessers had the hidden gene we would be awash in plattys from people trying to produce Blue eyeds.
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I eat human infants. They, like everything else, taste like chicken. What?

Explain then how Ralph was and is able to make butter daddies from butters?

Sure.....if you breed a lesser to a normal not every sib will hold the hidden gene......but some will......can you visually identify them......nope thats why you need to hold them all back to breed em out.
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~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

>>Explain then how Ralph was and is able to make butter daddies from butters?
>>
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>>Sure.....if you breed a lesser to a normal not every sib will hold the hidden gene......but some will......can you visually identify them......nope thats why you need to hold them all back to breed em out.
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>>~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

So what your saying is that the daddy part to anything only shows as homozygous...Which means that any lesser could carry the gene in het form and it not be visual(still recessive).

Which is the opposite of what some are saying..Which is that if the lesser had the gene then is should already be a daddy and not a lesser.
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Charles Glaspie

I wrote Ralph a long email about this, and he kindly replied with a long email back.

He said that the hidden gene is in all normals produced by Daddy breeding to normal. You cannot get the hidden gene from lesser to normal. I cannot give an answer according to Ralph about the butter half of that equation, as I did not ask him about it.

Logic tells me that Platty Daddy bred to butter made normals, butters, lessers, and lucys. If you breed a butter back to a normal from that clutch then you get a butter daddy.
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Happy Herping,
Jody Barnes
Royal Kreationz

1.0 albino
1.2 het albino
1.0 het caramel
1.0 het pied
0.1 poss het. pied
0.4 normals (beautiful pastel sibs)

It's the butter daddy and the phantom 44 that to me pretty much proved Hahaman's allele theory over the recessive hidden 2nd gene. I had originally thought the 2nd gene theory was more likely but the butter daddy and phantom 44 (assuming that's a phantom daddy) being produced without inbreeding makes it very unlikely that more than one additional mutant gene is needed to daddfiy other members of this complex.

So then the hard thing is to explain why platy doesn't produce some platy when bred to a normal and Hahaman's allele theory already covered that. If the hidden gene is yet another mutation of the same gene as the lesser mutation (like ABO bloodtypes, more than just normal and one mutant version of this gene) then the platy can't give lesser and the hidden gene to the same offspring. Each baby from platy X normal gets one or the other and you have to cross the two lines of descendents back to get both versions of the gene (alleles) together and make a platy. The lesser line doesn't have the hidden version of to give to it's normal offspring, only the platy, it’s first generation normal decedents, and some of the possible carrier normal looking decedents from subsequent generations on the normal line down from a platy (i.e. the normal looking offspring from a platy would be for sure carriers and if they where bred to normals those babies would be 50% chance carriers and so on). The only animals you could no for sure don’t carry the hidden gene would be lesser (or butters and probably any other member of this group once it’s proven there is a daddy version of that type) because if they had it they would be platy already.

If kingsnake could turn on html for the genetics forum I could draw out the Punnett squares to explain this better or I might just do it on another forum that has HTML on but it’s password protected now so would be limited access.

"Daddy" could be a random mutation like Classic Jungle that for whatever reason either only shows up in the Lesser/Butter/Phantom etc. complex or is only visible when it shows up in this complex.
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I eat human infants. They, like everything else, taste like chicken. What?

It could be random, but RDR has produced a number of them and every one produced up through 2005 when he was posting all clutch results agreed with the allele theory. And perhaps equally importantly he didn't report producing any in clutches that would have contradicted the allele theory like lesser X lesser.

N/P

I would say Lesser too, I havn't seen many Mojavies with that type of reduced pattern along the belly, while I am sure there are some out there...The coloration I think is what is throwing you off, while it might look darker than most Lessers, and have more of that Mojavie coloration, I would have to say Lesser....Of course you have to take my word and opinion with a grain of salt, as I have only seen a Lesser in person once..

Here is the picture of the lesser I saw in person...(not the best pic...but beautiful animal) it has that reduced pattern along the belly...thats how I distinguish between them, While Mojavies might have that as well, its just a little different...lol

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Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

I think that last picture is of a "pastel lesser" isnt it?
LOL
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You all talk Balls,I talk Royals ;0)
www.alpharoyals.co.uk

I think it looks like a Lesser.
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Spider

Cool patterned/ average colored Lesser from what I see.. I have a Lesser Het Ghost that has the same coloration as this one , and I also have a Lesser that looks as nice as about 90% of the Butters out there, he is a screamer.. Lessers vary but still look nicer/lighter than the Mojaves do.. I think you were sold the right animal, that isn't a Mojave... Anthony McCain Reptiles.

hey if you don't want it I will buy it from you . and then prove it out.