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I'm looking for advice from anyone who can suggest cage modifications for a black tree monitor who is missing the majority of his digits. I just adopted him yesterday. He's about 2 feet long. I know he is older than 3 and that his former owner was keeping him in a modified snake cage. Therefore he's not been "arboreal" for at least the last 3 years. He has only one claw on his forelegs and 3 on his rear so when I tried to put him in a tall cage he couldn't climb the branches. I now have him in a 55 long glass where he's been hanging out in some low branches. He seems pretty sedentary - not especially flighty. I was planning on getting a 6 ft.(280 gallon) Reptarium but now I'm thinking wider might be better than taller. I also don't want to overfeed him but don't know how much is reasonable. He ate 5 large pinkies yesterday and is looking longingly into the food bowl this afternoon. Any suggestions/advice would be most appreciated!

I don't have any experience with any part of your dilemma and I want you to know that up front. I wanted to reply earlier but thought it best to let someone with experience answer, instead of me. I'm only replying to try to help produce thoughts.

I can imagine that its inability to climb affects its mental state, but I can't think of anything that could be done to improve its climbing ability.

To me, since it can't hold onto limbs very well safety becomes a factor with cage & limb height. I wouldn't want it falling 18 inches to the cage floor, possibly hitting other limbs on the way down.

If I were you I'd experiment in the cage you have to see how well and how far it can climb. The thought of making climbing branches more horizontal than vertical to ease climbing comes to mind. Kind of like making them zig-zag to where it could climb higher. But then again, it's ability to hold on & not fall from a potentially dangerous height has to come into play somewhere.

Most likely you've already thought about these things, but hopefully this ignorant reply will help in some shape, form, or fashion.

Best wishes!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Hi again Happy Hillbilly - since I'm flying by the seat of my pants here I'm grateful for any thoughts you've got. I have been experimenting a bit - as much as you can experiment with a little 55 gallon. I started with a 14 inch high plastic fake branch arrangement and he seemed to do OK with that although I did watch him slide off a couple times and have to climb back up. Now I've wired a large cork round to the lid so he can climb up another few inches. He's hanging around inside that today. I've just about decided against the 280 Reptarium because I'd hate for him to slide off a piece of cage furniture and go crashing down 6 feet to the floor. I'm trying to decide what is a safe height to have him potentially lose balance from without hurting himself. Maybe 2 ft? Any thoughts on this? I want to give him maximum space but not enough to hurt himself in. His tail doesn't have the prehensile strength I'd expected - also damaged, like the toes - so he doesn't even really have that as an effective backup. I'm going to the vet too to see if he has any ideas and check for parasites. Thanks for your help! Lauren

I like FR's idea of a series of ramps. If you wanted a more natural look you could use big limbs, grapevines, corkbark, etc..., or you could just go with a simple board type. If you go with boards I think I would put in some cross sections for footholds. You could either glue small pieces across the ramp every so far apart or carve out notches. Just something to keep it's feet from sliding backwards since it doesn't have enough claws.

As far as a safe height, the main factors of falling would be what it would/could hit on the way down and the type of substrate you use (landing cushion). I can only imagine that in the wild tree monitors are pretty darn tough, able to fall 15 feet and hit the ground running. Now, don't quote me on that, it's merely my speculation. I've read of savannah monitors jumping from trees and hitting the ground running, unfazed. Of course, in the wild, I imagine they're in better health than yours is now. That means they'd be more flexible, limber, as the muscles act as shock absorbers.

I believe I'd experiment with that 55-gal tank for awhile until you see what kind of climbing feature it will be most sure-footed with and also to see how high it can safely go.

I don't know what's acceptable as substrate for black tree monitors but if leaf-litter or sphagnum moss is acceptable and you used aprox. 12in. of it, I'd venture to say that you might could safely go as high as 4ft as long as there's not any rocks or anything of that sort that it could hit if/when it fell. Now, that's with a good ramp-type system, which would require at least 18in. of cage width.

Honestly though, does it need to go that high? That's your call. After 3yrs of restricted heights I'd imagine it's pretty well content with just being off the ground. However, I can understand wanting to give it plenty of room, even though with its condition it might not be warranted or best.

Don't forget when experimenting with climbing apparatuses that it needs to be wide enough to give the monitor room to safely turn around on.

The whole time I was writing this reply Frank's comment "Also, your monitor is not normal, so don't ask it to do normal things, and do not expect that from it. kept running thru my mind. I've got to say that it looks as if that's the bottom line. That's the very same thing the Doctor that delivered me told my momma.

Hang in there!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Dear Happy Hillbilly,
He seems to be doing well with the cork bark. The diameter of the cage furniture does seem to be a consideration. I tried some surreal vine (about an inch and a half wide) and he's not interested in climbing it.

The substrate I'm using right now is just aspen bedding. I could attach zig-zagged climbing surfaces like I have in my water dragon screen cage but I'm trying to consider the "logistics" of having a foot of substrate in a Reptarium. The plastic liners are only about 5 inches tall. Then there's the humidity problem. If he's in screen then even with twice daily misting I may not be about to keep it high enough and just about any surface but cork bark would get super slippery. AHH - I'm so frustrated.

I don't know FR as you apparently do but he and I have not had what I would call a pleasant exchange. It makes no sense to me that someone would be gracious enough to answer a call for advice and then ruin it by being obnoxious as he has been. Although you may not have had experience with tree monitors your insights have been helpful, supportive, and much appreciated! I hope your savannah is well. If being a reptile fanatic is abnormal then I guess your mom's doctor was right but here's to it.
Lauren

Your main concern is you, as much as you want it to be about the monitor, its not, its about you. If you looked at what I said to you, its clear and strait forward.

In order to make a decision, you must understand WHY your making a decision. In this case, your constant use to the word "aboreal" is a road block to your progress.

The reality, no cage that fits in your house(assuming you have a normal house) IS IN FACT ABOREAL.

More reality, blacktrees live in Mangroves(not all that high) Their choices are predicted by available hiding areas. They cannot burrow as high tide will effect them. So they mostly shelter in hollow limbs(as do many many varanid species).

Most aboreal varanids actually are merely climbers, as most do not live in treetops or use the canopy as where they spend their lives. They climb and shelter in trees, but all make their living on or near the ground.

If you are to learn anything, you should understand what your DOING. In this case, your caring for a handicapped climbing lizard. If that lizard cannot climb effectively, then don't offer furniture that will cause it harm. DO OFFER IT WHAT IT REALLY WANTS, a series of shelters, and series of temp choices, humidity choices, and the ability to use them as needed.

The reality again is, you need to understand why your making decisions, not just making them. In otherwords, first meet its actual needs, and if it cannot climb, don't worry about it.

The truth is, 99% of the keepers out there worry about labels like aboreal, but DO NOT MEET THE NEEDS of the animal. An aboreal animal is ABOREAL, in order to meet its needs. As in, the ability to shelter/nest/hunt etc. In your case, just meet its needs, how simple is that. Why do you need advice for that?

Lastly, I offend you, because I require you to use your own head. How sad is that? Again its common sense, your the one that has to apply your decisions, its your animal. Following anyones advice without a proper understanding of that advice is not all that smart. Cheers

Hi Lauren!
Glad to hear the cork bark seems to be working out fairly well. Some keepers of other monitors use aspen & I've seen where some tree monitor keepers use cypress. Don't know pros/cons of either or. My "1ft substrate - 4ft fall" was a "roundabout," not spcific. Sorry about not making that clear.

OK, what's the 55gal tank's height....., aprox 21in? Three inches of aspen, cypress, or something of that soft nature should be adequate cushion.

> > > AHH - I'm so frustrated.
Sounds like your heart might be in the way on this one, and that's perfectly understandable. Happens to us all.

This is going to sound cold-hearted but hear me out, if you will. Just because it has "special needs" doesn't neccesarily make it "special." I mean, it does, but it doesn't.

Try to stop thinking "Oh! If this poor thing falls from (such-n-such) height I want it to fall into a mile-high pile of rose pedals!" Keep your heart out of the problem-solving aspect of it.

In a practical sense, if I had a 2ft (stl) tree monitor I'd take into consideration it's weight and the density of the substrate. .......... (I just deleted what I might do, as far as how thick aspen for such-n-such high of a fall, because I don't want that ridin' my shoulders.)

As for FR, well........, he's frank. Somebody knew what they were doin' when they named that rascal. Hahahaha!!! I only know him from the discussions we've had here & from reading in the background awhile before becoming active here. Everyone's seen every discussion we've ever had. We've never exchanged e-mails, met personally, or anything other than visible discusions.

This might make his head swell and some people puke, but the man's misunderstood a lot. No, he's not cordial, by any means. He's frank. (I wonder how many times I can say that in this reply?) His replies often come across as personal attacks, but I don't think they're intended that way. If he didn't care about your monitor, and THAT'S what he cares about (hint, hint), he wouldn't be so persistent in trying to help you. I say that with all kindness to you, Lauren, not in a hostile way.

This is funny; I just went back & read FR's first reply to you. I promise you I didn't realize what he said until after I wrote everything from this paragraph, up. This a few excerpts from his first reply:
"Actually this problem is not about monitors, its mainly just common sense.

So don't let it interfere with your thinking. Just give it something that will be of benefit."

That is pretty close to what I said above about your heart getting in the way.

Yeah, FR's a lil' rough around the edges at times, you've just got to hang in there to get past it and get the good stuff. He's got a wealth of knowledge & experience, though he might could brush up on his cordiality, but then......, he wouldn't be Frank.

If nothing else, I detect a good measure of intelligence within you. Don't let personal perceptions keep you from getting what you want, which in this case, it's good answers.

Hang in there gal!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

A couple of things, first off, aboreal is up, go outside and look up. With that in mind, a cage under 8 feet tall is not up or aboreal. So stop with the aboreal thing.

Also, your monitor is not normal, so don't ask it to do normal things, and do not expect that from it.

Give it something it can easily walk up, think a ramp. You can make a series of ramps that will allow it to safely go where ever it and you want(it) to go.

Actually this problem is not about monitors, its mainly just common sense.

The problem with common sense is, its interrupted by words and terms, such as aboreal. In this case, aboreal had no meaning anyway. A tall cage is a tall cage, its not aboreal until it reaches great heights(treetop, etc). So don't let it interfere with your thinking. Just give it something that will be of benefit. Cheers

Dear FR,
I am well aware of the meaning of arboreal and you may recall that I quite intentionally put that word in parentheses to indicate that no captive animal would ever be truly arboreal again. I realize the animal is not normal which is why I referred to him as disabled in the subject line. My question, which I'm not sure you understood, was one of safety and modifications. I are always imperfectly attempting to approximate "the wild" - especially with animals that were not captive-bred. My hope was that someone else might have had some experience with tree monitors that they could share. It's really not helpful for you to shoot back a flippant response when I'm genuinely looking for advice.
Lauren

Have any meaning to you?

This reminds me of a friend who used to keep green tree monitors -
built them a cage that was roughly 18" x 18" x 15' long!
I asked him about it saying, "Those are arboreal".
He answered, " I know. That's why it's mounted up next to the ceiling".
Different thinking, but maybe not as nutsy as I thought?
Keep its cage up high, then it can look around & "feel" normal.
Just a thought at 2am...
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"How the hell do you find a Heloderma in a snowstorm?"

You know Max - as bizarre as that does sound it actually may be a partial solution to my problem of helping this animal live as normal a captive life as possible! Thanks.
Lauren

Sitting alone sitting on a beach,
staring into the setting sun,
Just below the bright orange setting sun, I see a mast, the mast of a boat.

Dang I missed the boat!

Your missing the boat. Captivity and nothing about it is natural to monitors.

What you may think is natural to them, may indeed be very very far from what is actually natural to them. Consider, the most natural thing all reptiles do is, MAKE DECISIONs. Their lifes are a continous line of decision making.

Which makes me wonder why lots of wild reptiles choose tin and wood piles to make their homes, instead of whats natural. I guess the answer would be, because that tin or wood pile SERVES them well. It fits their needs, yet, its not natural.

It doesn't matter if your monitor is handicapped or not, you should offer husbandry thats FITS THEIR NEEDS, first and foremost. After all, thats what wild reptiles are looking for. Cheers

Dear FR,
Once again, you and I don't not appear to be communicating in a productive way. Telling me to use ramps not only does not answer my question about using a vertical vs. horizonal cage but is also BLATANTLY obvious. It's no insight at all. If your intent in answering my posting was to be helpful let me recommend that you take a look at some of the other responses to find out how to do that effectively. You have been nothing but sarcastic and arrogant. You will, undoubtedly, have a response to this email but don't write it for my benefit as I will not be reading it. Should you just want to get a last shot in so others may see that you are persistent - then feel free.
Lauren

I am sorry, I have no idea what your looking for I do admit that, And yes its obvious, you have a handicapped monitor, do want you will. Nature or natural, or any of that has nothing to do with it.

Yes, the answer is simple. Feed it, water it, clean its cage, and do the best you can.

Oh what? maybe gluing some fake claws. Cool, I would love to see that. Cheers

Funny you should say that FR about glueing nails to the disabled Blacktree Monitor, the reason I say that is because a fella by the name of Brian from Florida ran a private conservation center for Corucia Zebrata/ Monkey Tail Skinks( I know run on sentence) and had created prostetic hands for monkey tail skinks with no figers or toes that actually worked.

Monkey tails are kepted just as bad as most monitors if not worse, the wrong humidity level and they cannot shed properly often leading to loss of fingers and toes. This fella brian though, created these claw like prostetics that attached to the skink and actually allowed it to learn to climb again.

Also to touch on another subject mentioned about height of enclosure earlier in the thread, I kept Corucia which are highly arboreal for years, I have kept them in my downstairs and upstairs of my house. The funny thing is when I kept them in the downstairs of my house they would climb to the highest point of the cage and that is where they would remain. When I kept them in an upstairs bedroom they would mostly stay on the ground of the enclosure. I discussed this with other corucia zebrata keepers at the time and 2 of them tried this and experienced the same thing!!!!!! The point, for lack of a better explanation or scientific explanation, maybe these arboreal species have an internal sense of height and the higher the enclosure/box, the better the comfort level for the animal!!!! Just something to think about and test.
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Eveyone Is In A Hurry To Get Nowhere Quick, Fast!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi, Actually I kept those skinks for a long period. I got a pair, kept them for 15 years. They produced fifteen babies.

I had them in a 8 foot tall cage. They used the entire cage. But they most stayed midlevel to low. I had hollow logs throughout the cage. And both a high and low basking area.

They always had their babies near the bottom. She had an even split between twins and singles.

These skinks are also highly complex social animals.

The point I am making is, If your cage is less then ceiling height(8 ft) then its not aboreal, its simply an 8ft or less cage. Aboreal is up high.

Please understand, I am not saying that reptiles are not aboreal. But much the opposite, a cage that is taller then wide, is not aboreal. Its simply a cage. To represent aboreal, a cage must be high, say 20, 30, feet or more. If not, its just a cage that we call tall.

Yes, my comments are about the keepers not the animals. They can be aboreal. The keepers are merely fooling themselves. You can decorate a three to eight foot cage, anyway you like, ITs still is only eight foot or less and that is not aboreal. As eight foot is within the height ground dwelling reptiles will climb.

I think many keepers just need a bit of common sense. Putting an aboreal reptile in a cage thats taller then wide, DOES NOT MAKE THE CAGE ABOREAL. What it does is apease the keeper. And thats and thats really about all it does. For instance, you can go to a reptile store and see a tree foot tall cage thans 18 inches wide. Its labelled as an aboreal cage. How stupid, and its not the cage builders fault, they are just selling a product. Its the buyers how look at a three foot tall cage, and call it aboreal, because its taller then wide. The reality is, its merely a three foot tall cage. Nothing aboreal about it. Then right next to it will be a cage three foot tall, and four foot long, and its not aboreal. Hmmmmmmmmmm silly humans.

And yes, you can hang a cage up in a tree, and surely you could call it aboreal, but it still restricts the choices an aboreal reptile would make. Cheers