Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I find myself with 100,000 square feet of empty cages. A falcon breeding project that has been shipped overseas has left me with 50 empty cages every one of them the size of a large room in a house with a 12 foot ceiling in most.

My reason for not getting involved in monitor lizards has been their cage requirements. I am currently working with the large tropical racers from the Americas such as Cribos, Pseustes, Spilotes and Coachwhip snakes and have had good success with breeding and raising offspring. I have always felt that snakes are less demanding than monitor lizards but I am wanting to take the plunge.

My goal is to start with something that will give me a feel for breeding and raising monitor lizards, I like a challenge but realize that success will come from hands and open dialog “success and failure” My passion is large monitor species and arboreal species. I am thinking a good starter species would be either Nile or Water Monitor and a pair of tree monitors. I do not know the success people in the states have had with these species and would appreciate input as I go along.

My ultimate goal is not to provide a market with oversized lizards that will end up in sub standard homes but to progress to species that are not represented well in the states and make them available to others sharing similar interests.

My question is a simple one that has been asked 100 times before but never did anyone ask it with 100,000 square feet of empty cages. Oh by the way I also have a 200 foot circular covered round cage with 12 foot walls! What would be good for me to start with given the above scenario? I am wide open to comments.

-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Well, given all that room for learning and mistakes, I would suggest purchasing 5 of the youngest animals you can find of the same species that you would like to work with and go from there.

With the recent ability to purchase surgically sexed animals would a random group be advised or should I get 2.2 or 3.3? Is competition good? Should I combat the males or will all monitor species develop a hierarchy ? I would like to narrow it down to a group of something that is known to breed well in captivity so I can study monitor behavior and transition from there as there should be some commonalities between species.
-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

If I were you I would save alot of money and aggrevation, set up a trio or pair of smaller monitors in the small building properly, raise them from hatchling to adult, learn from them and find out that it takes to breed them, and that your dream will be a world more expensive and difficult than you think.
You said that you are gonna try to just heat basking spots, and not those buildings, this tells me you need to learn alot more about keeping them and how temperatures from the ground and air can effect their cages.
Also air conditioning becomes very important in summer, if not you could kill them fast with the heat. Back-up systems to keep air conditioning going and to prevent gremlins from killing them are important. Even in summer here livestock that can cool themselves very quickly die, they are warm blooded so winter doesnt seem to cause problems, they get over heated by accidents in very expensive reliable modern facilities on a regular basis.
You might want to visit FRs place to see what a much smaller facility takes to set up properly, nowhere near 100,000 sq feet.
You have an expensive dream there.
Good luck.

My intention was almost exactly what you guys are proposing one cubicle set up for a small group to start. I have worked with some water monitors in the past and it seemed no matter what I had them in it was too small. It might very well be that they just are not my thing but like anything else if you do not try you will never know.

Back to my question , if I were to set the thermostat for the building at 65F and have an underground 24”PVC tube ,which I set up for my snakes, that goes 4 feet underground at an angle with the bottom heated with a pad under the concrete plug say at 90F and two basking sites one at 140F and the other around 120F would a group of 7 neonate water monitors thrive? All the food they could eat.

I am looking for more criticism to point me in the right direction.
-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

.
-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Its not going to work, but you must find that out yourself. (except niles)

All the species you picked are tropical, and being cold blooded, which is different from birds, makes your building and location, more or less non workable.

Non workable means, you will have various degrees of success and failure. Ending up in a ton of work with little to show for it.

I would think you would already understand that people have tried your approach before. MANY TIMES. You know, I have buildings designed for other things and want monitors to fit those buildings.

What you seem to fail to understand is, monitors are easy to breed in captivity, VERY EASY. Its supporting the conditions on a continious basis that causes the problems.

So again I recomend starting small, and working from there.

I think what your missing is, varanids the come from tropical(consistant temps) parts of the work, never had to develop the ability to understand cold. They without question understand how to make choices based on heat. But cold and colder, seems to be necessary in their lifes.

Then consider, where I am IS A MILLION TIMES WARMER then Kansas. Its too cold here.

From your answers, you appear to be a kid living at a nice farming area. You know, 100,000 sf, money is not needed(#1) choice of species, Etc. In reality, if that was your facility, and it was you that actually worked the raptors, you would not have to ask the questions your asking. So yes, start small, and go for it. After all, thats how anyone would start, young and old.

I have always said, the key to keeping and breeding monitors is based on the keepers ability to make timely decisions. So go for it. Cheers

I am 47 years old and know you from a show in Florida some 12 years ago. I ask questions because I think before I act. I am the sole trainer for falcons at this Ranch. I have been breeding colubrids for 30 years but have been pondering monitors for about ten years and I take what you say to heart and that is why I have success in most everything I do.
-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Thanks, you see, if you were to look at what you said, you would need a lot more to go on. So please understand, I have to ask, if I can be of any help what so ever.

In all normal cases like this, you must decide what your mission is(mission statement in business) Without that, no one can be of help.

Also the fact that you showed a giant facility, it can only mean, you intend to use a large part of that. If not you would have said, I want to alot X amount of SF to keeping and breeding monitors.

Also niles and waters are not what you would want to breed. You see, if you work your arse off and are successful, all you get for that is a kick in that very same part. Nothing wrong with the monitors. Its just that they are imported in mass numbers and price is no object to the exporters.

Again, I will say, start with a small area, something you can control. My bet is, you will not venture into any large scale, unless your part owner of Microsoft, or a dear kin. Cheers

I apologize for being awkward as I often am. A friend of mine Max Peterson has been forwarding your posts to me as we have some common ground on different levels. If you were to ask me something about Falcons or Tropical Racers I could talk your head off as I am respected for my ability with both.

I have kept Monitors on a few occasions and realized that they seemed to be a bit more demanding than a large hyper colubrid as they never thrived in my care. I am in a sense a kid when it comes to monitors but yes I would like to breed water monitors and I can do as I wish with the enclosures and money is not much of an issue, after all I bred coachwhips for 10 years because I like them.

The questions I ask benefit me and I do learn from people “ I am willing to invest my time in your guidance” as you have a proven track record in your specialty area “monitors”.

The two disciplines I would like to master before I get to much older is I would like to breed some all black water monitors and some black tree monitors because I like them. I am sure you got started because you liked them also. You have most of the answers I seek and I am sorry if I am pestering you but I can be relentless in some respects.

Here are some pictures from my world. Indoor outdoor cages with doggie doors I designed that work. And a chamber raised Aplomado Falcon that acts like an imprint. My daughter holding an F1 Coachwhip I hatched in 1997.

-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Nice pics, I love that pic of you daugther, the chair shes sitting on is better used for outdoor cages for monitors. hahahahahahahaha Another recent thread here.

Also I love aplomado falcons, seen a few in So. Ariz. Is that a tricel or falcon?

About Racers and coachwhips, Forget anything you know about them and stick with what you know about birds. Your much better off understanding varanids, coming from a background with birds.

I see your cages are Vision cages. The owner and brain behind that is Scott S. Which brings up my shirt that I was wearing last night while out roadhunting with my good friend(21 snakes) Best night of the year so far.

Scott and I, while on a drunken stupor at an old Orlando show, came up with this idea when discussing monitors. We came up with two reasons I was so successful, particularly in lieu of so many others(huge genius, then all) failures. Please keep in mind two things, drunken stupor and Scott S.

We came up with my famous sayings, "heatum and feedum" and "the more you read, the less you breed"

Sadly, those goofy statements are very very accurate today, which by the way is many many years later.

Why I question your setup is based on the first of those sayings. Heatum and feedum. Monitors REQUIRE, a body temp much like your birds, in fact, nearly EXACTLY the same. Only they do not create that themselves, after all they are reptiles. You must provide that ability for them. Which is where Kansas comes in. Without EXTREME heating, your going to torture monitors. I EXTREME heat our monitors and its already REALLY hot here(Tucson ARIZ). Yet, I still add heat.

I made this statement in 93, and it is still accurate today, if its not 100F(plus/minus, 5 degrees) outside, there is no benefit to keeping monitors outside. Your better off keeping them inside and offerring controlled heat.

The sad part is, air temps are nearly worthless when understanding reptiles, and monitors being creatures of the earth, go by mass temps(earth, inside trees, inside rock mass, etc) And not by air temps. Which again throws Kansas for a loop. Your earth(mass temps) are friggin cold. No matter what the air temps are, its the mass temps that will hold you back.

Something of interest, I am a snake guy, first and foremost. Not a varanid guy. My interests are reptiles, not monitors only. As such, varanid guys do not like me. Monitors are just another reptile. A fun one, but just another reptile. So, coachwhips are heat loving snakes as are all the racers. But sadly, they are still colubrids and work well within the range of all colubrids.

If we keep coachwhips in our monitor room, you know, the room that produces dozens of generations of many species, year after year. They die of toooooooo much heat, just as any other colubrid does. I know, because I tested it. Coachwhips and racers are my FAVORITE snakes in the field. FUN FUN FUN. And pretty too.

Which still brings out my first concern, heat heat heat. Unless you do something different, then I fear you will just have 100,000 sf of varanid killing space.

Of course being reptiles, varanids NEED/REQUIRE, a temp range choice. And many species can take fairly cold temps, to freezing(I tested it too) As long as they can also choose HIGH TEMPS.

And yes, there are species that can tolerate even lower temps, but none understand the length of our north american winters. If they did, they would be feral in other places besides winterless south fla. And yes, Kansas has LONG winters.

Couple that with your dreams of Black waters and blacktrees, who do not understand any winter what so ever. Your going to have to modify your train of thought.

I am still confused with your first post, why do you mention 100,000 sf to be used for getting into monitors in a big way. If thats what your going to do, "forget about it"

Take that little building and modify it, or better yet bulldoze it down and start over with a building "MADE FOR VARANIDS" from the ground up. There is a fella, that occasionally visiteds our forum, JME, that build a nice building for varanids in a cold climate. He did a fairly good job, right(great) idea, wrong materials. But he did not talk to me until after he build the building. Which was a bad idea, as what I hold important is, how the building is built. After all these years, If someone would ask, WHAT WOULD YOU HAVE DONE DIFFERENTLY, my anwser would be, I would have made the building TOTALLY different. My cages, my approach, has proven to be good. I have cages that I build in 91, that have produced monitors, unchanged since that time. I am proud of that. I got lucky.

But the building, could have been made a zillion times better and cheaper for that matter.

You see, one more little tiny important factor comes to play. Humidity and moisture. Varanids of all kinds and types, REQUIRE, a fairly high degree of that. If not, they DIE. Which again leads to Kansas, cold and wet, is not a good thing.

If you read the posts concerning all cages for monitors, the experienced all mention, WATERPROOF the cage. That sir, is a common approach with all successful keepers(not merely me)

Which leads back to this, your 100,000 sf, is a 100,000 sf of useless space, until its FIT for varanids. Another negative thought is, as a builder, I understand its far easier to build from the ground up(new construction) then rebuild something that does not work.

So, what questions does this post bring up? Cheers

I grew up with Scott Selstad in Agoura or attempted to grow up! LOL I wired in one cage after viewing your cages at the Florida show.

I have a pair of Aplomados and they are from Peru and the one laying down is a Tiercel (Male for the viewers)

>I am still confused with your first post, why do you mention 100,000 sf to be used for >getting into monitors in a big way. If thats what your going to do, "forget about it"
My original idea was to offer HOT HOT HOT basking areas and burrows letting the animal choose but I understand the concept of forget what I know about racers as it will confuse me. My tropical Cribo’s (racers) choose heat and are allowed to thermal regulate. It was 55F last night and they chose to stay inside. The foam plug is my doggie door keeping weather outside while allowing the snakes to choose. I understand that Varanids are Varanids and just like raising falcons and snakes it will be a completely different discipline.

I already knew and understood the concept of (keep um hot and feed um a lot). I also understand most of the basics but you answered what I wanted and needed to know and that was if they would “choose” heat if given a cold hot option I assume the answer in their case is a resounding no except for Nile monitor.

The chambers are waterproofed with spray on foam insulation that can be coated with “polygem epoxy”

Thank you for the dialog.

Bill Ried
-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Many years ago, we "tried" heated burrows and night houses(used for torts) etc. All met with dismal failure, to one degree or more. hahahahahahahaha

Monitors understand how to pick hot from warm, or cool to warm, but cold never enters their brains(for the vast majority of species) As in, it appears to not be programed with most species and most species are very tropical. Which means, 99% of varanids occur between the tropic lines.

A well know heat/cold problem. When monitors body temps drop below a certain degree, they lose the ability to understand that and often burn themselves basking. Many tropical reptiles do this, burms, boas, etc. But if they never drop below a certain level, they will never burn themselves. While thats a problem eaisly solved, I mention it to make a point, there are some things they simply do not get.

Now take into consideration, that all monitors feed on the same prey items(everything that lives and can be consumed) They are not restricted by particular prey items. And that includes plants. So what on earth restricts many many species from extended farther north and south then the tropics????

Some interesting examples are species that occur from the tropics to well south/north of the tropics. Take Lacies, our lacies do not die when allow to go below freezing, in fact, they have no problems with temps in the twenties. Thats not hard to understand, as they occur to the very south of Australia. But they also occur to north of Carins, well within the tropics. There, they do not experience freezing or winter. Its the same species, but do they have the same abilities. As in, can you take the tropical individuals and have them survive in the south or the southern individuals and have them survive in the north???

In my limited experience the tropical lacies can indeed withstand freezing. That also is true with V.tristis, which occurs to the very top of oz, to south of the tropics. But other species like storrs or V.scalaris, take one look at anything close to freezing and they are DEAD. As in, they do not play that game. Yet, they occur side by side, with tristis.

Does this work with all varanid species, that do that? heck if I know, you will have to test it on a one by one basis.

Which brings us back to Your choices, Black waters and blacktrees, they do not have any idea of what your talking about. Freezing and associated temps are foreign to them. Its not in their computor.

Now, if you keep their enclosures at room temps up to varius hot basking areas, you will succeed in ways you cannot understand.

A deciding factor with temps also appears to be bulk, large bulking monitors, REQUIRE the most consistant temps, as they cannot quickly absorb or release heat. So they run in the middle range, never allowing extremes. Small individuals of the same species, can and do use the extremes, as with less bulk, they can both gain heat and release heat quickly.

So again, two of the species you picked, as adults, are bulky and are very limited as to a range of temps they can function in.

Also, blacktrees appear to be very tropical in their temp needs, not understanding temps below say, 60F or above 120F. As they never had to develop methods to work with something they never are exposed to.

So again CONTEXT rears its ugly head, folks here me talking about ackies, then use that infor on something else. For instance, The Sav book by daniel bennett, is horrible in that way. They copied my methods for ackies(tooo the Teeeee) and had very very limited success with Savs, then wrote a book. Would I use ackie methods on Savs, No sir I would not. Two different items you know. I would use the basic ideas, then modify them to Savs.

I mention that because, its not the temps that are the problem, its how each species understands how to get those temps, that must be understood.

So, I have terms like usable temps and unusable temps. You can offer 135F until your blue in the face(ok, red in the face) and your monitor may not use it. Change the way it can use that temp and it will use it like crazy. In otherwords, just because you offer it, does not mean you offered it IN A WAY THE MONITOR UNDERSTANDS.

So yes, thats why I recomend you start slowly and figure out that stuff in a way, YOU UNDERSTAND and works in an area you LIVE IN.

Again, those buildings do not appear to have what it takes to work in a cold climate. But you could show more pics of areas you intend to use. Maybe something good could come from it.

So you "know" Scott, hahahahahahahahaha I enjoy him to no end, hahahahahahaha Cheers

I inputted every last word and you tied up more loose ends than you know. I will get some interior shots for you as the medium sized building will be outfitted for the Aplomados and is getting a heat pump put in a few weeks from now.

The temps can easily be adjusted to room temp with some appropriate basking sites. If and when I taste success the offspring will be set up in a separate room with identical variables. We have an endless supply of well water that has been tested and passed with flying colors so I will have fresh water possibly on continuous drip with an extra large drain for quick water changes.

The floors are deep gravel with a concrete parameter. The gravel ranges from pea sized gravel to two inch smooth rocks and I can always have a clean chamber adjoining one that has become soiled to minimize stress although I would guess they get used to routine.

Food that is available here is Mice, Rats, Quail, Deer meat, and the occasional chicken as I order chicks when available from time to time. I would be tempted to start with some Lacies but I know better LOL, those hurt when they die! LOL or as you say HAHAHAHAHAHA

I will now give you some time to attend to the needs of others.

Until next time

Bill
-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Thanks Bill, I hope I can be of help.

If you could post a pic of your adult hen aplomado and the adult tercel, that would be great. I just love those falcons. Cheers

Here's one of the tercel.

-----
"How the hell do you find a Heloderma in a snowstorm?"

....

First off, I laugh a lot, hahahahaha 100,000 sf, hahahahahahahaha If set up right, you could produce more monitors then all in the states put together, times five.

Second, what part of the country is this facility in? As if its anywhere but southern Fla. Its going to cost you a million bucks to heat them buildings. As monitors take lots of heat and heat is not cheap.

You mentioned niles and waters, well, the electric bill will be more then the monitors are worth. Not even counting the food bill which will be very large.

Then you mention, tree monitors. That shows some naivity. That is, you are making a choice between opposites.

Then your scale is off, that little building could produce more tree monitors then you could ever sell. That is if you not only learn how, but actually apply that.

I have one of the very few monitor facilities, in the states, and I have about 3,000 sf under roof. For a decade or so, we produced over 500 to a 1000 monitors a year. I have cut way back. Now only a couple hundred a year. There is no profitable market for captive hatched that I know of. Or at least outlets that will actually pay. Remember the scale here, you mentioned, 100,000 sf. Not a clutch here and there. Which does appear to be profitable.

If I were you, I would fix up that little building and get a few monitors and set them up nice, and try to have fun with them. On that small of a scale, it does not matter what kind you get. Cheers

I live in Kansas and I will not be heating the whole chamber. I plan on heating an underground chamber in each with a simple basking site within each. Each building is insulated as we have had our Gyr Falcons air conditioned. Heat will only assure the structure does not freeze.

I have no interest in making money . Monitors are nothing more to me than an un realized dream and yes I do not expect to find a market as stated once if I am able to learn the basics I would like work on preserving some genetic diversity.

Large and arboreal can co-exist in some species such as the crocodile monitor. My statement was animals I find attractive nothing more.

Suppose you sell me a group of Lace monitors? Should I start that way? It is what I want. What if I get what I want and kill um all? I am asking what should I start with so I can learn.
-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Well, unless you heat the building/s, you may want to rethink monitors. As I mentioned, take that small building, and try out you thoughts.

By the way, I hear that, money is no problem thing, but after all the WORK it takes and all the money you will lose, nearly all quit in short order. Please understand, its not a prediction, its history. Cheers

The electric bill is 3,000 per month already and we have leftover farm raised quail scraps enough for a large colony of lizards from other endeavors. We raise a fair number of rodents as well so the lizards fill a void in a sense
-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

I agree, you're way off here. Use your head and set up a rodent breeding facility with all that room. Then you'll make some money. Use that money to get yourself some nice dwarf monitors and then start your monitor breeding project - though those you can set up in your bedroom, hahahaha
I do envy all that space though. Good luck with whatever you choose to do.

I have a rodent project! and a quail project! and a deer project! again it has nothing to do with money.
-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Why don't you start with V.Prasinus I hear they are real easy to breed."LOL"

Hi and nice place..Dreams can come true!...but here ...you will get shot down faster then you can say.. Why..if you get the drift.

I'm 48, and a dirt hawker for 12 plus years... some have tried ,but the running walking must be to much for most..I guess you could bring your laptop in the bush...lol ..and still post....best of luck.


no trouble intended!

I am not likely to go away as I feel that there is some inherent good in people. I enjoy the style of this forum or I would not be posting but my heart goes out to the kids, the next generation that get shot down before they get over their awkward introductions just because someone is having fun at their expense. Us older guys will soon be gone and the kids will be the ones trying to fix the mess this world is dishing up.

I came here looking for some wisdom with an ecological problem earless lizards vanishing and I provided some data that was half heartedly discarded. Water of a ducks back for me but what if I was only 13 years old and how would I have felt? I might have just given up and said to he!! with trying to fix something.

I am not going to cower and there is a time and place for crass comments but it should not be the rule. Thank you for your post.

Bill Ried, President
Atrox Animal Technologies Inc.
Cottonwood Falls Kansas

-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

Oh come now Bill,you know I wouldn't poke fun at anybody but you. What are friends for??
B

I was just getting around to you Barry. You missed out on a fun weekend during the meteor shower. Plenty of horned lizards out here still but not my thing. I know you are dieing to embarrass me on line somehow so I thought I would save you the trouble!

-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

embarassed, heres my hare pic.

Enjoy

I hope you were singing the In N Out song when you were holding that Joey. =)

I was on a collecting trip for, hmmmmmmmmmmmmm ever wonder why those burgers are so tasty. Roo meat is the best. Cheers