Reptile & Amphibian Forums

We have a 1.5 year old leopard that when we let him out to graze he eats little dirt chunks and rocks. We have had him for about 2 months and he just started this a few weeks ago. He does have a cuttlebone in his cage and eats well. Besides a good bit of grazing on lawn we feed Mazuri, Timothy hay (bedding), dandelions, mustard and collard greens, endive, grape leaves, watercress, arugula, nastursum leaves and flowers. The majority of the food is Mazuri, dandelion greens then what ever he grazes on in the lawn or in his cage. The other greens are bits from our beardie salads and can include some fruits/veggies. This really only makes for 5-10% of his diet. We do add calcuim and vitamins on occasion but have not found any good information on how much. Does anyone have a suggestion and could his eating dirt be a way to get the supplements he is missing? He is kept in an 60gal tank with a UVB light, spot light for heat and heat pad for nighttime heat. At night the hot end is 75 and in the day it ranges from 80-90. He gets a bath every other day and is outside for at least 1/2 hour every day.

Thanks,

Aztlano
0.0.1 Leopard
1.1.0 Bearded Dragon

I think your Tort is deficient in some minerals (read calcium). Torts naturally get their minerals via eating sand, clay or stones. The issue is the stones can block their digestive tracks.

Here is what I suggest you do:
Feed your tort on calcium carbonate sand (Crushed lime stones)
Remove all stones from your tort's reach
Avoid any high oxalic acid food (from what you say - you do this)

The worst thing for your tort is high silica stones - the ones sold for aquariums (sharp stones like blue metal, quarts and other very hard stones) as these will only injure your tort if ingested.

If your tort suddenly goes of its food and starts to loose weight, you should take him to your vet and have an xray to determine if he has blocked intestines. Not a very pleasant situation.

Thanks for the reply. He was getting Ca dust on his food everyday because he is growning. Using the rings on his scutes as a guide. But noticed his plastern was "soft?" Not squishy but when pressed it would give a bit. The only examples of soft shells I have seen are from pictures in books and they looked bad. He is not this soft but his plastern will give kind of like when you push on a CD case. So back to the books and they said too much Ca can cause this. That is when we stopped giving him Ca. BTW he was eating dirt/rocks when we were giving him Ca dust. We stopped giving vit. dust as well. We were putting some on once a week. So does this change the advice? I can give him Ca and vits everyday if need be. Just didn't want to overdue it.

Thank you,

Aztlano

I had a good laugh at the dinosaur comment in the other reply.
Just an FYI - Tortoises were on the world before dinosaurs and as such cannot eat dirt/stones as a throw back to the dinosaur days.

Other than Birds (Modern day dinosaurs) animals eat stones, soil, dirt or clay because they have some sort of deficiency in their diet. It could be Mineral or bacterial. I would keep the calcium and heated UVB (UVB is of little value without heat - like the sun).

I took a look at my Yellow foots (They are about 3 years old) and there was a little give in their shell - well when turned upside down I get about 1/8th of an inch movement. I think this is normal (It has reduced as they grow). I do not know what is "Normal" but my Tortoises get about 3 or 4 hours of UVB a day and they get a light sprinkling of Calcium on their meal (About as much as one would use salt). I also give them mineral water - I find they prefer that to tap water.

I think the take home is, it is "normal" for Tortoises to eat stones and soil. It has been reported by many that eating stones can course issues.

This is odd but it is normal to an extent. It looks like you're giving plenty of calcium. Mazuri is very high in usable calcium.

Some folks think that it is a mineral deficiency but the truth is we really don't know why the eat rocks or dirt.

Some think that it is a throwback to the dinosaurs to where it aids in digestion... There are a good deal of crazy ideas.

Mine is that they are checking something out... it smells good... they taste it...

If it can go in it can come out. If you notice that your tortoise is doing this consistantly there is something wrong.

I do not think you have any problem with the diet.

I noticed that you keep the tortoise in an enclosure indoors for the most part.

Chart how often you let him out and how often he eats the odd stuff. You obviously supervise him when he is outdoors so just make sure he does not go after anything that is too big. Even if he does... watch him and let him unless you see a problem. It's all part of the learning process. If the frequency on him increases you do have a problem. I willing to bet he is just testing the waters.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

On a side note it was mentioned that the tortoise shell should have a little give...

I've found that while in captivity this is common I don't think it is normal. Given the sufficient nutrients regardless of UVB the shell will develop rock solid within a year. I've found this with several different species of tortoises.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Thanks for all the help. We watch him closely when grazing and will give Ca 2x week and vits every other week.

Happy Herping,

Aztlano

As I mentioned before... if you are feeding Mazuri for more than 50% of his diet you will noticed a dramatic increase in the shell firmness after a year.

Also, make sure you maintain good temperatures and hydration. Good temperatures are 80F for the minimum and a basking spot of at least 100F. Water should be available at all times.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Looking at the make up of the shell (the bones are fused together) and thinking about my experiences as a kid (I use to catch turtles in the ponds). I suggest there should be some movement in the shell - Be it small amount of movement. My yellow Foots appear to be very healthy - You can see them both below in the locomotion photos. They are not displaying any pyramiding and have moderate growth.

I keep mine at 75 degrees F and have a 4 hour "Sunning period" where my UVB heat lamp comes on. I have no idea the temperature is under the lamp. I find if I increase the temperature above 75 my Tortoises try and climb out of their box and find a cool dark place to hide.

You might want to check out the following in order of importance:
Laboratory Anatomy of the Turtle, L. Ashley
Osteology of the Reptiles, A. Romer
Medicine and Surgery of Tortoises and Turtles, S. McArthur
and
Reptile Medicine and Surgery, D. Mader

You can also check out

Biology of the Reptilia, vol ?

Those should give you a little more insight into tortoise anatomy because I believe your mistaken on some of your ideas.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

I located my copy of Medical and Surgery of Tortoises and Turtles – Great book – highly recommended for anyone who cares about their charges.

Anyways I looked up poor calcification. The book indicates there is an issue if the shell can be depressed. What I was saying is it is “Normal” to be able to depress the tortoise shell a very small bit – in my case it is under 1/8th of an inch.

The book also talks about normal tortoise shell growth and the fact the shell is made up of carotene covered boney plates that grow from the edges. There needs to be a little bit of movement for the tortoise to grow (When I say a little I mean very small amount – like below 1/8th of an inch). I will also say as my Tortoises have become larger their shell is getting thicker, heavier and harder.

Also my Tortoises hate the temperature going above 85 and just try to get out of their box and into a cold dark place– This will change depending on the breed or even the animal. The same goes for UVB requirements – Mine are Yellow Foots and they come from the bottom of the jungle (A place where they only get filtered sun). They sun them self under a UVB lamp for about 4 hours a day. This requirement will change from one breed to another.

As mentioned before, the soft shell is common but not normal.

The way I understand it is that the shell is made up of plates that grow at two edges... in the bony part of the carapace it grows along the edges of the sutures. Along the keretin of the carapace it grows along the edges of the scutes. These lines of growth are almost directly offset and do not line up at all with each other. In a normal shell the sutures are closed and fit tightly together like a complex jig saw puzzle. In a shell which is poorly calcified some of the suture lines fit together like fingers of an open hand touching tip to tip. This is when you have a shell that gives. I don't think this is normal because the shell is not properly calcified.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

My understanding is very close to yours - but I still maintain a little (Very small) amount of movement along the edge of the carapace plates is normal - How else would my Tortoise be able to grow? Also as they get older (years older) this movement should reduce as the plates will be a greater percentage of the carapace.

Another symptom of poor calcification is pyramiding (right?). I have had my Tortoises for just under 2 years - their shells have always had a little movement - be it very small and the previous owners kept them outdoors. In my care they have increased by about 2.5 times - and do not appear to be exhibiting any pyramiding. They now weigh just over a pound.

As I have said before different Tortoises will be different. I know the wild pond Turtles had more give in their shells than my land Tortoises.

That been said - I am no "expert" on Tortoises - I only keep 2 Yellow Foots.

Final note...

Pyramiding has nothing to do with calcification... either too much or too little.
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Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

It has been my experiance that tortoises receiving proper calcium & minerals & UVB have almost NO give in their plastron.

Also in my experience calcium does NOT seem to be a main cause of pyramiding - either too little or too much. Where did you read/hear that?

Having said that, redfoot & yellowfoot tortoises are forest dwellers & need less UVB than grasslands or desert tortoises. So yes if your UVB light is too close, your redfoot WILL try to get out of the heat & bright light. That is why you should always give your tortoises as many choices as possible for microclimates in their setups. The proper distance of your light from your tortoise is crucial!