Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well, I saw a recent add wanting a Black Gap female. I will be the first to say that Lance and I were very lucky to have found this little gem. Major Thanks to the person who sold us this beautiful Alterna. (Russo and New Joyseee crew)- please take notice. This is an ultra speckled, black gap, female, CB. Not a granite phase, or chilli dog phase or mocha latte phase. (sorry had to say it! heheheheheheeh)

In total we purchased 5 Alterna. I will post some others later.

SXO792

Great find.. Congrats!!

By the way, I see no reason for the cheap shots.. I think it's childish and uncalled for.. If you have something against me personally, let's deal with it offline.

~ Mike
516 359-4158
MikeRusso90@aol.com

Notice the laugh at the end of my response. This means it is a joke... Sounds to me like some folks above the mason dixon are easily offended... Maybe we should all have a vigil or something and talk about our feelings... Maybe share some intimate stories.

hehehehehehehee

SXO792

Steve, Nice find. Is it from Dan J's Gaps and are you able to trace it back to the WC origins?

Great snake!
Jim

Is from Dave D. I trust his locality data. So I can safely say Locality Animals. Our picture taking prowess is muy mal (very bad) so that is why the same animal looks like two different animals. You should see the Hueco Male Lance got. Freakin AWESOME!!! I will post this one later...

Best Wishes,

SXO792

WOW, those are nice!!!
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South Texas Herps

Russo's got a point. And I think that the silence at this point needs to be broken. I understand the importance of the alterna sub-culture to be passionate about locales, etc. But the splitting needs to stop. It's getting annoying being considered "A YANKEE THING" when we up North have an opinion or have something to say. Sorry Mr. Forks, but with all due respect I speak my mind in support of all herpers, not just in the interest of segregating north and south. What is this, some kind of revolutionary sub-culture that has been unresolved over the last 300 years? That yankee post from below remains, but I'm sure if I spit out the words "red-neck" or something to that extent not only would it have been deleted, I'm sure I WOULD'VE BEEN BUMPED from the site in some way, shape, or form. Let's grow up gentlemen, and enjoy the damn hobby as a whole. And do feel free to chat with me as well on this or any other matter in the interest of bridging gaps, not widening them.

Jerry Kruse (NY)

I'm not even sure what the fuss is about, except maybe Steve was a little rude, but what does that have to do with me? I'm not the moderator BTW.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

e-mail PHWyvern or use the "report abuse" link located on each every post towards the top of the page. I dislike the divisive nature of that post myself.
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>>http://www.hcu-tx.org
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

heheheheheheeheheheheheehe

Seriously... some folks take offense to everything. Not much you can do about it. I explained my case and let the chips fall where they may. We are just lucky. Whether it be due to work, family or other circumstances, we live in the State that has arguably the best snakes in the world.

Am I bias...

Maybe a little...

SXO792

if that's what you mean, but I am a big fan of "Granite" Bulls since I found this one hehehe

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http://www.hcu-tx.org

heheheheheehe

That is a kewl snake though...

SXO792

granite bulls man. It hurts to look at them.

L8r Shannon

if you are a ball python nut then this would explain why you read into my note more than others. My post was just joking, but since i have touched a nerve, lots talk about creating mythical names for color patterns for snakes in order to make money. Every show I go to I see literally hundreds of ball pythons with all kinds of names under the sun in order to make more money from them. I am passionate about Alterna and therefore don't care to see the same thing happen to them. Whether it is Granite or Aztec, I like to keep the BS out and stick to the facts as best you can. If this is offensive, then please poster me as WANTED #1.

Best Wishes,
SXO792

we ain't yankees...we ain't rebs....we are all alterna guyz....so just stop it..or..i'm gonna start namin' stuff and it won't be pretty.....just like MY grayband below....the DARTH VADER phase.....wait'll ya see the pups he pushes out!!!!

Darth Vader phase is only justified if his offspring are light phase with yellow. Luke Skywalker phase. Or female offspring that are full of attitude with weird swirl pattern on the head.

Be careful with the 12 million candle power... That thing is so bright you could be on a cut and light up Sanderson at the same time. Save that one for the guy who wants to shine on the same cut you are walking. That would definitely mess up the night vision.

Best Wishes,

SXO792

that would be SEVENTEENPOINTFIVEmillion(17.5,000,000) candle power....... to quote a good friend of mines, ric blair ,"GET THE SUNGLASSES OUT"......there will be some serious eyeshine this coming season.....and yeh...youse peckerwoods do have "most" of the best snakesin the country in texas.....at least in my opinion.....please don't nobody get offended.....but that's why we drive and/or fly out there each year....and then .....turn on the light and BAM....there's a DARTH VADER phase ....or worst a DOR.....but its an experience...........

it took you a couple of posts to simmer down and speak to Bob in a more respectable and reasonable manner. Your point became very clear, and makes complete sense. That's all I'm alluding to; basic respect without the girlish "teeheehaaHAHAheehee" or trying to separate people by a mason dixon line. I just don't go for nonsense like that. Not in this day and age anyway, particularly after 9/11 -- those bastards smashed those jets just short of 3 miles from my home back in 2001. I take it personally when someone tries to separate others given the fact that, state lines and some geographic "cultural differences" notwithstanding, we should try to be more brotherly WITHOUT some smart-ass vigil. Your safety was just as compromised as mine that day, but I'd hate to think that's all we have in common. I have grown to be passionate about alternas very recently after almost 15 years of breeding colubrid snakes (and never a ball python either... mostly triangulum ssp), but I must say, with the separatism I sense in the gray-band forum sometimes, it's making it real hard to not only enjoy other's company in here, but also making quality, locale alterna hard to come by. Maybe that's by design, who knows. But I'd hate to think that I'm going to have to invest another 15 years doing this to earn your respect simply because I'm "not from the land of the almighty alterna". All in all i respect your paramount feelings about alterna and maintaining its integrity, but that sarcasm is sometimes just too much. Likewise, I've written far too much than I usually do, but human relationships just so happens to be a passion of mine as well (as well as the core of my profession). Hope the gaps can be bridged, and no hard feelings at this point either. So with that said, where can I find a smokin' pair of Black Gaps? LOL.

Jerry Kruse

First, thanks for your response. Sometimes geographic location is an advantage when it comes to reptiles. If we were on the subject of Eastern Milks, I would assume that someone based in New York or Indiana would have an advantage in both knowledge and specimens.

It just so happens that I am lucky to live in Texas and Alterna are my favorite herps.

Take Care,

SXO792

who gives a fat rat's butt about eastern milks....i mean really....my apologies to youse eastern milk snake people....now coastals....ahhh...that's another story....some of us easterns are texans by time spent in dalone star state.....ain't that right herpo???

I may be able to change your thoughts on Eastern Milks. This is a little different from your traditional Eastern.

Joe, you need to get together with Ted Thompson (www.s-ecto.com) and make some some dbl het albino whitesides!

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

What would be the difference between an ultra-speckled (the name implying a phase) and a granite phase?

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Just a naming preference if you ask me.

I like speckled myself since it is a more accurate description of the look.

Lance

In my opinion, I feel that too many people embelish on Ball Python names to make money. I can't even begin to tell you how many normal looking ball pythons I have seen called chocolate mocha phase, or desert phase or Mojave phase. (wait a minute, I didn't know Ball Pythons were in the desert)

So... my goal is to keep the names given to Alterna honest and accurate. What does this mean. Simple... First note the sex (male or female), then note either locality or Generic/Non Local, then pattern (any pattern), then phase (blair / alterna/ intermediate). Example (Female, 277, black head, medium blair phase.

Again this is just my attempt at keeping Alterna Names from getting out of hand.

I love MRusso's Alterna. I enjoy seeing the pictures and as far as looks they are awesome.

I hope this helps explain things.

Best Wishes,

Steven Owens

Steve,

I don't think that Mike is trying to make up a name, or promote a made up name for that matter. the name granite is not going to add to the price of a generic specled snake, it is worth about a 100 bucks as a hatchling either way.

The name GRANITE is not misleading or anything as say a "speckled black gap TYPE phase" would be. Mike is a good guy, and so are you Steve. I know you were busting chops, but I know you - other people don't. By the way the hehehehehe thing is kind of ....well happy - silly, stick to like LOL! or something

So long as it is a pure grayband the Granite has my positive vote, but i think Specled phase is more appropriate. I wouldn't buy it for 100, but it is great looking and I might pay 250 for a true verified back to w.c. origins locality one if i wanted it that is. The snake below was one of my generics I hatched years ago, he is now over 3 feet and belongs to someone else. Generic but still a good looking snake and valueable anyway!

That is an awesome Gap. Concerning the ball pythons, yes, there are alot of people making up fake names but some of those names are real. The Mojave for instance is a co-dominant trait. Co dominante works essensially the same as the typical simple recessive(amelanistic, anerythristic, etc.) except in co-dominant the hets are visual. Often the hets are barely discernable from the normal phase but they carry the genes. If you breed 2 Mojave Balls together you wil get 50% Ivory phase and this is a basicly solid off-white snake. If you breed a Mojave to a normal Ball you will get 50% Mojaves, the same way if you bred a het amel to a normal you would get 50% het for amels. Alot of the Ball morphs are co-dominant hence alot of them look almost just like normals but breed 2 co-doms together and you get a dramically different morph.
I think the "Granite" alterna work the same way. "Granites" look just like a normal speckled alterna but breed 2 true "Granites" together and you will get Patternless phase.

interesting, So the granite alterna ia not a "made up" name for the pattern at all then, It is a descriptive term for an actual mutation. Is this right?

I suspect that the speckled look is not just a single trait, I would say it is a little more complex mix. You can get that look on many western locals and in some cases you can get it down to nothing but the speckling.

You can breed two completely speckled alterna and get nothing that look like the parents. Just like you can breed two blairs phase alterna and gut a full mix... lights, darks, blairs and alterna morphs in one clutch.

I am 100 percent certain that Aaron knows a lot more about Ball Python genetics than I do. If he says their are trully different morphs than I believe him... It still doesnt change my mind about fancy names for Alterna. Whether our community decides they are 10 dollar snakes or 100 dollar snakes, I want to keep the names REAL.

Best Wishes,

Steven Owens

not much you can do about it really. If someone wants to attach a name to a "morph" I don't see how it anyone else's business. You only have control over yourself.

It's actually in your best interest (fancy names) from a marketing standpoint and as an alterna breeder yourself.

Those names are nothing more than descriptive terminology. Sure some of them are pure BS, but some of the best and most respected breeders in the business use "fancy" names as adjectives.

It is what it was, no matter what you call it. I don't see myself being swayed by a fancy name because I can see right through it. But it might make your snake worth another $25.00 to someone else
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

stinkin' fancy names.......we keep it real.....we don't need to market our snake...alterna speak for themselves...and if you can't hear them...then you don't belong....DARTH VADER says "WHAT?"

As I originally explained, a friend of mine picked this pair up for me last month at the Daytona Expo where they were sold as "Granite Alterna".. Honestly, before this I never even heard the term Granite Alterna..

Since I knew nothing about them I posted pic's up here to see if I could get more info/opinions on there origins. Knowing fully well that they were NOT locality animals.. But, I figured someone here would know more about them.

I 100% agree that there is no room or need for "fancy" names in Alterna.. And, the last thing I would want is for ball python syndrome to creep into Alterna. Therefore, from this point forward I will ONLY refer to these animals as "Speckled Generic Alterna" which makes much more sense to me anyway and I hope that satisfy the masses as well..

~ Mike Russo

Mike,
disclaimer first - I know absolutely nothing about the origin of those alterna,

having said that they sure look like they originated from Johnson's black gaps. they very well could have "other" genes in them too.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Hi Joe,

I was thinking the same..

~ Mike

Regardless of the name or locality they are awesome.

But it doesn't matter a damn if you call them granite or speckled. They are both descriptive terms used to convey a mental image of what they look like, neither imply its genetic nor do they mean they are worth more. (Which was the point I was trying to make in my original post.) Not much different than a Female, 277, black head, medium blair phase really

Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Vinny, I agree with you.. And, i did not name these animals.. Nor was i trying to place a higher value on them by using the term "granite"

~ Mike Russo

I have never been about the money. I have given more alterna away than most here. I am about accuracy... Joking posts aside I value our Alterna community. The way it tries to hold true to localities. This is a benefit, not a curse. With that in mind that is why I encourage the use of simple but true names, rather than fancy ones like "Halloween Phase or Cherry Bomb". I may be fighting an uphill battle, but I will do my best.

Best wishes,

Steven Owens

Disclamier: It is hard to accurately project feeling and emotion into posts or email. Please assume positive intent when reading my posts.

Mike, I love your snakes and your pics. I was just joking about the other posts... Just my personality.

Trust me when I say those Alterna are phenominal... If any one of us found one on a cut or road like that we would pee ourselves literally.

Please keep the quality clutches and pics coming.

Best Wishes,

SXO792

Thanks Steve... And, NO hard feelings.

Now let's hug it out!

~ Mike Russo

Also, for the record.. I was born & raised in NY & I own a house upstate NY for the past 17 years where I literally have to be carfull not to run over Eastern Milksnakes while cutting my lawn... And, although I have cought a few of them to check them out I have never once considered taking one home with me..

I have a herp room full of alterna.. But, I know absolutly nothing about Easten Milks and would never consider keeping or breeding them..

I am very jealous of you guys.. If I lived in TX I would be out road hunting every night with a big old flashlight like Bob's.. and, my wife would hate me!

~ Mike Russo

Alterna are so damn addictive... you start off with your favorite blair or Alterna. Then you get another... Then another. Then you want to pair up a locality. Then another...
Whether you hunt with your wallet, or with your flashlight. It seems that nobody can have just one. Here is our current list (lance and I) since we both keep snakes at my house...
1.1 hueco tanks, 1.4 black gaps, 2.3 east sandersons, 2.4 pecos county north sanderson, 1.1 277, 1.1 juno, .1 west langtry, 1.0 lozier, 1.0 musquiz, 1.2 xmas, 1.1 crockett, 1.1 sheffield (if Rick gives us a female). 32 Alterna give or take? Hopefully even more later this year and next...

Trust me when I say this... If I produced Alterna like yours, I doubt I could sell any of them. My wife would see my crying and be like "oh god, Alterna are hatching again". Having to part with some of those blairs, like your Langtry or 277s would cause my blood pressure to skyrocket.

Best Wishes,

Steven Owens

Steve,
Hueco Tanks??? Please clarify. Surely you mean hueco mts. The cuts that highway 90 runs through. I don't think [but not positive]that anyone has any alterna from Hueco Tanks state Park.
By the way another Hueco was caught 3 nights ago. That makes at least 15 and maybe 20 found this year from there. Incredible! We're going to have to start calling them far west Langtry/Sandersons, there becoming so common!!! LOL. BA

I had hueco tanks on my mind. My mom was telling me stories about when I was a kid and we lived in El Paso and my parents used to take me to the tanks for picnics and to play. She said I used to catch lizards and snakes there...

Yes, Hueco Mts or Cuts is more accurate.

I heard about another one taken. This is nuts. Pretty soon they are going to be as common as 277. Try to give them away at shows and people will be like "no thanks, already caught 6 this year".

Best Wishes,

SXO792

I don't know about "HUGGING" per se, but it's a good feeling to see that we're all on better terms. I WISH I had a room full of alternas, but am quietly satisfied with my six so far (1.1 W. Langtrys, .2 Loma Altas, and 1.1 X-mas mtns). I'm saving room for a couple Black Gaps for whomever may be offering . Anyways, lots of positivity and tons o' eggs for the future fellas. Looking forward to chatting again and sharing stories/experiences.

Jerry Kruse (and that's NOT an eastern milk in the background, lol, it's a Jefferson County, Illinois red milk. Not that it makes it any better, eh? LOL!)

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It is just the way I was "born" into Alterna. I have NEVER had a time in life when "Alterna" were not locality. Even when I was the youngest of pups making every possible mistake walking the Juno Rd did generic snakes ever enter into my mind. Again not that they are any worse or better, just never entered my mind. Maybe it is because locality Alterna were here and readily available. Maybe it is due to the folks that got me started down the path of Alterna. I hope that nobody thinks I have any bad or negative feelings toward them. I am a jokester at heart, my buddy Lance will verify that. There are lots of folks around the US that have awesome locality Alterna... I don't think any less of them for being outside of Texas.
Plus they tend to have better luck than we do when they come down and hunt for a week... (cough cough coach!)...(cough cough)

So to sum up, no hard feelings, lets keep the Alterna flowing!
Best Wishes,

SXO792

Steve you said, "You can breed two completely speckled alterna and get nothing that look like the parents."

Yes that's true but that's exactly what makes "granite" a real morph. True "granites" will produce 25% normals 25% "granites" and 50% "patternless" every time, just like breeding two het for amels always produces 25% normals, 25% het for amel and 50% amels every time. "Granite" is the het form of "patternless" and Dan Johnson's Black Gaps that he sold as "patternless" are real morphs. I don't know if everything labeled "granite" is really the real morph. To know that you have to have breeding history because as I said "granites" are virtually identicle to speckled alternas.