Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Has anyone tried incubating alterna eggs, or any other colubrid eggs, without substrate similiar to Chondro eggs? And with what kind of results?

I assume that the humidity would need to be close to 100% for all colubrid eggs whether they were touching substrate or not.

I am thinking about building this type of incubator over the winter. I plan to try a clutch or two of alterna eggs and a clutch or two of variable eggs in it. I've been using the Hovabator at 80°F for years with mixed results.

Thanks,
Tom Anderson

I have tried numerous techniques incubating alterna eggs......when the perlite craze started 15 years ago, I tried perlite....I've used paper towels, vermiculite, sand/peat moss mixes.....all with mixed success. I would say over the past 28 years, I have had hundreds of alterna die full term in the shell. Last year, I started putting damp paper towels on top of the eggs one to two weeks before the due date and increased my hatch rate. This year, I tried some other things (such as increasing Vitamin D3 in the adult females AND males). I got very good results in fertile egg rates, but my incubator malfunctioned while I was away (herping of course) and cooked all the eggs...so I will have to wait until next year to see how well Vitamin D3 works.

The bottom line...I think, if the egg is fertile...it will hatch no matter how you incubate them. Why do I say this....I have captured four gravid alterna: as I have changed my incubation techniques, I have tried different strategies on these four clutches. To an egg, all the fertile eggs in the first three clutches hatched perfectly with no kinked babies....(I am still waiting on a Sanderson clutch -- hopefully I did not give myself the kiss of death)...

Anyway, my two cents.....hope it helps, gmerker

Gerald, then those hatch (not trying to jynx you) will you please post pics of them? I am curious to see what they look like. I am sorry about your other stuff.

Best Wishes,

SXO792

was that 4 pregies this year???

Thanks for the response.

What are the current theories about the full term dead-in-egg babies? Obviously those were fertile at one time, but died for some reason. Could be thickened or hardened eggs. Some think it's wet conditions causing swelling on the brain and a mentally handicapped snake that doesn't know to break the egg.

Kinked babies is another thing... Genetic or not? I have a female generic that's thrown about 20% kinked babies with three different males.

This year, the first clutch, first year female, went 7/8. The one that died was directly below another egg and couldn't cut through both.

The second clutch went 4/11 with one kinked one and 4 dead in egg and one so deformed I'd call it a snake ball. Not fertility. Might be genetics.

The third clutch hasn't hatched yet, but I'll be lucky to get 3/9. Might be fertility.

The forth clutch is due to hatch the beginning of Oct and still looks perfect. Have to wait and see.

All eggs were incubated the same way in two parts perlite mixed with one part water. We used to use 1:1. This year we switched to dryer medium and got our first dead-in-eggs.

Tom Anderson

Like G-merk, I've had a mixed bag of hatch rates, especially in alterna over the years. Admittedly, I don't have the experience producing alterna like many others, but I have had a few clutches here and there over the years. I used D3 starting after last seasons clutch. This year, for whatever reason, my RR eggs were no good, one of my 277 blairs had no interest in the males so she didn't produce, but my 277 alterna gave me 11 good eggs. All the eggs went to full term, all the eggs hatched, all the babies were healthy and none needed help out of the egg. The only other thing I did was to keep the incubator a little more dry than in the past, especially towards the end of term, so much so, many eggs, including the alterna, were looking pretty sunk in. I had several problems with other clutches, including my thayeri. But that one clutch of alterna did great.

Brad

Here are a bunch of Ideas and questions:

I think the dead in the egg babies can occur from 2 main sources, Thick shells are a possibility, and too much water / moisture another more likely possibility. Can the moisture escape from alterna eggs as it might in other reptile eggs? I never noticed a change in tone or color prior to a healthy hatching, only slits in the egg the day before hatching. This leads me to think that grayband eggs are programmed to absorb moisture as much as possible and to only retain that moisture.

I have a question for Gerry regarding the paper towel trick, I wonder how wet or dry is the substrate before adding a damp paper towel? Also do you notice the eggs caving in during incubation and does the paper towel cause them to swell back to a round / oval shape?

Could it be that thick shells do not cave in while thin shells do cave in? When the keeper sees the shells caving in and adds moisture because he is thinking they are drying out is it doing more harm than good? Does adding calcium to the diet make the shells thicker so they appear helthyer to the keeper and therefore he does not feel the need to add water?

With those little bulges on the head that are shown below, I think the snakes brain fuction may be compromised and their "cue" to begin to breathe doesn't kick in. as an example if you find some dead in the egg, you might slit to find live in the egg, but ultimately they don't make it out and you will find them dead a few days later.

I believe that these little junos i hatched this time were close to having too much water on the brain, but they are apparently making it now. I slit sunday, and they are either out, or alive in the egg right now. It looks to me like it is a race for them between absorbing the yolk and their breathing reflex kicking in.

these juno babies are not nessisarily defective but they are not as "quick" or maybe mature as the generic clutch that I hatched a few days earlier.

I also believe the coloration is darker on these than in 2005, the last time i hatched from these parents. The difference being a cooler and wetter incubation. Does anyone else see a link between incubation temps moisture and coloration?

It seems obvious that thick shells could prevent the snake from cutting through, but i think if they are healthy inside the egg they will be pretty persistent at cutting through. I do not believe i have had many that didn't make it outdue to thick shells.

I do have a clutch of four junos to hatch in about a week to ten days, I moved them to a dryer substrate now in an attempt to avoid the water on the brain. I am thinking of adding a damp paper towel in a few days if i see them drying out. I am not sure what the best thing to do is, but i think at this point a dry substrate with a damp towel for some humidity is best.

Lots of good questions, but I'm not authorized to answer.

Honestly, I couldn't say for sure, but I do 'think' there is a link between the D3 and moisture to healthy babies.

Regarding darker vs lighter alterna related to moisture? Yeah, I don't think so. Mine were pretty dry this year and they aren't very light. I would still consider them light alterna, but I've seen lighter from both dry and high humidity incubating.

All intersting thoughts though.

That is so not a pretty sight to see. This happened to me last year and I have no idea why. That SUCKS!!!!!!!!!

WAYNE

Thanks for the responses and ideas......I am willing to try anything. Bob...4 gravid in one year would be legendary - Bob A. and George W. alterna pirate legendary! Those are my total gravids EVER! 1993, 1999, 2001, and 2007. I am still waiting on a clutch from the Sanderson female we found this year. I will post images if and when they hatch (now that I have committed the kiss of death).
The reason I posted that information is I know these wild-caught animals are doing something, getting something, etc. that many of us don't provide them in captivity. Looking at Jim's images of dead full terms is heart breaking for all of us who have experienced that. I am hoping someone figures it out and lets the rest of us know! Thanks again, gmerker

I had 4 clutches of alterna eggs this year and I lost one baby full term and about 5 molded. Only the eggs under the perlite at the bottom of the egg mass molded. This is a method I have used for the last 5 years with great success. As soon as the first baby cuts the egg, I cut all the rest with a very small x on each egg with a sterile exacto blade and tweezers. Here is where things get different. I then use a blunt syringe and remove several CC's of amniotic fluid. My goal is to make an air pocket so that all the baby has to do is bring its head up to get some air and then the do not stress about cutting the egg for that first gulp of air. I was always under the impression that the babies drown full term because for some reason they can't get out. I am very careful not to suck up any of the yolk sac, you can tell all of a sudden the syringe will not suck up any more because the yolk is caught. I then leave the babies to come out on their own. It takes a few days but the babies seem to be in great health. Out of the eggs that did not mold I only lost one full term and had one with a few tail kinks. Maybe the lack of enough calcium does not allow them to form a proper egg tooth. On a sub note I have just started to use the chondro method on some Suboc eggs. All the eggs that got moldy for me were viable and they were the eggs that were mostly buried in the perlite. I think this contact with the moisture is what caused them to go bad. Here is what I am doing with those suboc eggs. I use really wet oversaturated perlite then I put the egg crate from over head lights on top and place the eggs on top of that. You can buy the egg crate in the lighting section of home depot. I get about 85% humidity in the egg box. The eggs look full and all good. So anyone who tries my method next year and gets a better hatch rate than usual owes me their first born, first born alterna that is. Try it, it has worked great for me.

I've used a home made incubator. I use a large enough clear rubbermaid type of container to house smaller tupperware style containers. The small containers house the eggs with a 50/50 mix of pearlite and vermiculite, These containers are suspended on egg crate over 1/2 inch of water. All the egg boxes have a few holes in them for air circulation as does the rubbermaid incubator. To circulate the air I have a computer fan mounted on top of the lid blowing down for circulation. Works pretty well.
-----
Steve W.

Steve,

Do you wet the perlite/vermiculite too, or is that dry and all the humidity comes from the water resevoir?

Tom

>>Steve,
>>
>>Do you wet the perlite/vermiculite too, or is that dry and all the humidity comes from the water resevoir?
>>
>>Tom

I make it a little damp and check on it every few days.
-----
Steve W.

that sounds like some girl i used to know

i just put them in shaphgnum moss and keep them at room temp which varies....steve can attest to my hatching success.....this year was bad, but its my fault...2 clutches were laid...but i missed 'em....i have 2 juno eggs that survived, they looked dead,but seem to be ok and a clutch of 277....maybe i'll post pics.....now if i only could remember how...new knees sept 27...as for wild clutches.....there are all kinda trace elements and minerals and vitamens that they get from their habitat..that we can't sense..like rock fragments or soil that are ingested while feeding....one of my first wild caughts wouldn't feed....i had brought cactus back also....one time i placed the mouse in the empty cactus box which still had some langtry dirt...this was not intentional...then as i was placing the mouse in the cage...the snake crawls out in search mode and grabs the mouse from my hand...something in that dirt stimulated him to feeding mode........also what part of the eggs' mocrohabitat are we not aware of???.......lots of ????.....not enough answers......YET