Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Just was thinking about this and figured I would post it and see if there is anything that could be taken from it. I'll first say that I don't own or plan to own anything venomous but I would like to keep that right open to me if I ever so wish.

Anyway, to the point. In regards to reptile shows why not make anyone that enters the show with the intent to buy wear some kind of braclet. Anyone with one of these braclets can be sold too and anyone without can't. Then there will be people at the door checking for these braclets....the only people that can leave the room with a venomous animal needs to have a braclet on.

To get one of these braclets you have to prove or at least convince the show promoter or whoever would be in charge of this that you are capable of owning a venomous animal. This could be done by a simple, quick interview with the potential buyer or by a paper questionnaire or some other piece of paper that may help prove their ability. Obviously there are numerous people that are well known and could be given the braclet with little interferance but you get where I'm going with this. You may also think that you will have people buying for those who couldn't get a braclet...which could happen but I would also think that those with braclets who proved themselves legit would also be smart enough to do this. Then again even if they did then we are no different off then not having this type of protocol. I would also think the integrity of the hobby is worth the time to hand out these braclets....it may also prevent those who don't deserve these animals from even trying so it may get to where its not a big deal at all.

Anyway, what say you?

Nice idea but at big shows this would be a logistical nightmare due to time constraints. On top of that, many folks can "talk the talk" who are actually completely incapable of actually keeping a venomous herp. It's a difficult challenge but certainly ideas like you'rs may spark some ideas for a better system because if we don't come up with one, I envision that most herp trade shows will one day come to an end. Obviously, we've got some very serious problems with how shows are run - even the legit ones have their problems and near disasters but I know the organizers are trying their best to get a handle on the situation. Venomous herps are far too readily available to the private sector and while that in and of itself isn't necessarily bad, it does compound the issue of ready access to potentially deadly "pets" for folks who do not have the proper experience, maturity level and resources. One possible solution is that animals have to be be pre-sold before a show where breeders can properly screen individuals. At the show itself, folks who haven't made arrangements with breeders can only put deposits down on the animal but the transaction cannot be completed until after the show and after the breeder has had time to run the background checks. But, herein lies another problem.....it's a good 'ol fashion case study of the "Trajedy of the Commons" and with the unscrupulous breeders meshed in with the legit folks who do things right, it becomes a situation of "well, if so and so is doing it, so should I because if I don't, someone else will" and the almighty $$$ wins out once again. I don't have an answer.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>Just was thinking about this and figured I would post it and see if there is anything that could be taken from it. I'll first say that I don't own or plan to own anything venomous but I would like to keep that right open to me if I ever so wish.
>>
>>Anyway, to the point. In regards to reptile shows why not make anyone that enters the show with the intent to buy wear some kind of braclet. Anyone with one of these braclets can be sold too and anyone without can't. Then there will be people at the door checking for these braclets....the only people that can leave the room with a venomous animal needs to have a braclet on.
>>
>>To get one of these braclets you have to prove or at least convince the show promoter or whoever would be in charge of this that you are capable of owning a venomous animal. This could be done by a simple, quick interview with the potential buyer or by a paper questionnaire or some other piece of paper that may help prove their ability. Obviously there are numerous people that are well known and could be given the braclet with little interferance but you get where I'm going with this. You may also think that you will have people buying for those who couldn't get a braclet...which could happen but I would also think that those with braclets who proved themselves legit would also be smart enough to do this. Then again even if they did then we are no different off then not having this type of protocol. I would also think the integrity of the hobby is worth the time to hand out these braclets....it may also prevent those who don't deserve these animals from even trying so it may get to where its not a big deal at all.
>>
>>Anyway, what say you?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Or anybody leaving with a hot can be questiond.Your idea soungs pretty cool

it starts at a federal and/or state level. if there was ONE permit system in place for the whole country and each state simply dealt with their folks and reported the permitted people to ONE collective database, then problem solved when it comes to shows. a quick database check (either via laptop or a printed out list in alphabetical order) and you know whether or not that person is capable.

NOT regulating the hobby (like a lot of states) is bad, bans are bad but simple regulation is where it's at.

i don't see the necessity to regulate each and every cage, that's just anal. throw some regulations out there and every so often, a random check with 24 hours notice would at least be a reason for folks to comply, wouldn't overwork the state employees and wouldn't require extra manpower.

sadly, this is a dream in a civilized country. without red tape and false delays, some government officials wouldn't have a job.

and as for folks buying for others, well, what can you do? criminalize it like you do beer and cigarettes and hope that people will be responsible.

One of the first reasons is that it is the promotor's job to have a venue for vendors to sell to people. The vendors should NOT rely on a promotor or some other outside source to tell them who they can and cannot sell to. Regardless if someone had a bracelet etc, the vendor should make sure the individual buying the animal(s) in question is in it for the right reasons. Not only that, but the system is easy to bypass.

I don't know what hot shows people are getting down on, but I do know that I've been to some that are much better than others. With that said I've been to some that have been run in a very serious manner with very serious manner with public safety taken into mind (ie: no open venomous containers, no hot room, no exceptions.)

I would think the promoter actually works for the vendor, considering how the money flows. The promoter does have the authority to place whatever policy he/she wants, but would be hard pressed to enforce this and shouldn't be expected to.

I think the system of promoting reptile sales by using the gender decimal system should stop at venomous. This is just a gimmick to sell two or more animals by implying that serious enthusiasts always buy a sexed pair (or trio)to breed. If you are buying a venomous reptile you are serious (or should be). This convention or practice should be "frowned" upon in the venomous community (like venomoids are, and this campaign has been effective).

What in the world are you basing your information off of??????

It is just an easy way to represent what the animals are. Nothing more, nothing less. It is not there to try to force people to buy more or less of any animal.

I did not provide any information. I provided an opinion, so I guess that is what it is "off of".

so you think folks will forget that there are both male and female snakes who possess venom?

No, they might need to be reminded that they breed to make venomous snakes.

Pray to the reptile Gods to get all keepers on the same page.

Seems to me everyone is on such completely different pages with all kinds of issues that they might as well be in different books! Any time an idea to better the hobby comes up, or a suggestion of any kind, everyone chimes in with something completely different and it soon escalates into a pissing match. I'm not neccessarily talking about this thread per se, though I wouldn't be suprised if it escalated there, but I see it all the time in this forum. Seems more and more that this is a lost cause and its only a matter of time before.....

...just thoughts of an outsider looking in. Good luck all!

Jason

I don't see what the problem is with having a permit system in each state. If I sell venomous in Florida, and the buyer has a valid Florida Venomous Permit, and a picture ID to campare to the permit, I really have nothing to worry about. If the state of Florida gave that person a permit, I shouldn't have to worry about selling them venomous snakes.

If I attend the Hamburg, PA. show, I have my Florida Venomous Permit to show the vendor, and he knows I am considered worthy of buying and keeping venomous.

True, just because someone has a venomous permit, that doesn't mean they have the ability to keep Taipans or Black Mambas, if they only had experience with Cobras or Vipers to get their permit. The states would have to require the person or their sponsor to show experience with whatever species they wanted to keep before they got their permits. When I do sell to someone without a Florida Venomous Permit, I require the person to answer some questions and provide me with the names of people they have purchased venomous from before so I can check them out.

I got my Florida Venomous Permit when I lived in North Carolina. It was very easy. Too easy in fact. I listed the venomous I had at the time, which included Vipers, Pit Vipers, Cobras, King Cobras, Taipans, Eastern Browns, a King Brown, a Papuan Blacksnake, Death Adders, and Black and Green Mambas. I also listed, with their permission, the names of the licensed dealers in Florida who I had purchased the snakes from and when I purchased them. I enclosed a check for $5, the cost back then, and I had my permit in less than 1 month. Then I could travel to Florida to buy venomous and legally drive home with them.

Now I live in Florida, and I think the permit system here is pretty good. And, I have nothing to hide, so I don't mind if my FWS guy comes by without prior notification.

RC
Suwannee Reptiles (Formerly Venom Street)

"If I attend the Hamburg, PA. show, I have my Florida Venomous Permit to show the vendor, and he knows I am considered worthy of buying and keeping venomous."

The problem is that vendors at Hamburg rarely, if ever, ask for a permit, how much experience you have, or where you are from. I've never been asked, but have always shown my permit any time I bought hots. The dealers are going to be the one's hurt by any new requirements, simply because they don't police themselves. If every show required them to follow certain protocols, you'd see less and less hot dealers at Hamburg. Most don't care who they sell to, if they're made to sell only to certain people, they'd lose alot of sales.
I've been to MANY Hamburg show and have seen some really shady deals from MANY dealers, even the reputable ones. It's not going to effect me, but I'd like to think they would smarten up abit.

Your absolutly correct. I've been to Hamburg about 8 or 9 times, and Columbia SC 4 or 5 times, and I don't remember anyone asking me for anything. Only when I went to the first Daytona Venomous Show, was I asked. I look over 21, so I guess that is all most people care about. Many people do know me when they see me, so maybe that is why they don't ask. I was one of the very first members of SHHS. Another thing is I purchased almost only from people I know like Mitch Brynes, Mardi Snipes, Matt Crews, Micah Stancil, and only a few others.

We definitely need to police ourselves, but it would help if everyone capable of owning hots had a permit stating that fact, so people like me would feel better about selling hots to them, because I do care if someone does not have the knowledge to keep something they want to buy from me. I turn down many more people than I sell to. I don't want to hear about someone getting tagged by something I sold them, I don't care how much experience they have.

RC

"If I attend the Hamburg, PA. show, I have my Florida Venomous Permit to show the vendor, and he knows I am considered worthy of buying and keeping venomous."

The problem is that vendors at Hamburg rarely, if ever, ask for a permit, how much experience you have, or where you are from. I've never been asked, but have always shown my permit any time I bought hots. The dealers are going to be the one's hurt by any new requirements, simply because they don't police themselves. If every show required them to follow certain protocols, you'd see less and less hot dealers at Hamburg. Most don't care who they sell to, if they're made to sell only to certain people, they'd lose alot of sales.
I've been to MANY Hamburg show and have seen some really shady deals from MANY dealers, even the reputable ones. It's not going to effect me, but I'd like to think they would smarten up abit.

I am kind of into the idea of cleaning up the sale of venomous at shows. Last time I was at Hamburg some guy left a copperhead on the floor as he was looking at another display. I nearly stepped on thing.

However, one of the folks working the show (to his credit), promptly told him that he could not walk around with it and he would have to leave it at the front desk. That is what you are supposed to do anyway, but how many times have you seen someone just mosey on along with some elapid in a shotty bit of tubberware?

I love going to shows and I love the fact that people can still have a hobby like keeping venomous reptiles, but if something happens and someone gets bitten in the show, I can't imagine that show ever happening again.

The idea of safe transport out of the show is my primary concern (for the patrons, the purchaser and the reptile). I am a little dubious of it being a logistical nightmare (at least at Hamburg) to prove responsibility of a potential buyer. If you are known, you are not going to get questioned. If you are not, you will have to prove that you are responsible (is it really all that many people?). It just doesn't make sense to play games with venomous herps. The hobby is on the verge of a countrywide ban (I can't keep them in New Jersey; not that I have the training if the laws were different). I don't want to be a fascist, but I want people to be able to continue what they love to do.