Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have some questions about alterna eggs in the wild. Where are they laid that's humid and around 80°F? The temperature of caves is the same as the average air temperature over the entire year. The average temp in Del Rio over the entire year is 70 and cooler in higer elevations. Can alterna eggs incubate at temps as low as 65-70?

Has anyone ever found alterna eggs in the wild? Has anyone ever found obvious hatchlings?

Thanks,
Tom

What if there are microclimates within these cave/rock fissure structures. Whose to say what kind of temp/humidity there might be when these fissures can go on for miles underground. I'm sure it would be next to impossible to take temp/humidity readings from a wild Alterna nest site.
B

I've always thought we were incubating alterna eggs at too high temperatures. Several years back, I incubated a few clutches in a downstairs closet that maintains a constant temperature of around 68F. The babies hatched fine. The only difference I saw was the length of incubation (which was quite a bit longer). It seems to me that in the wild, the conditions required to maintain adequate hydration of eggs just can't be found for prolonged periods in areas that could have a chance to reach the temperatures at which most people incubate eggs in captivity. I've heard some people dismiss the idea of incubating at cooler temperatures citing examples of poor hatch rates, but it's not been my experience.

Hey Damon ,do you think they would have hatched in that closet at a constant 65f.

Ever taken temps inside the cuts say 6 to 8 feet deep? Maybe deeper? You may have something here...

Alterna breed beginning of June. Lay eggs beginning of July. Take 100 days to incubate. Then hatch around October. This gives them enough time to utilize stored yolk and get ready for first hibernation. The hatchlings dont have to feed until 6 months later.

Could be why we have so many problems getting them to eat season 1. Then they magically take off in season 2 after hibernation.

Very interesting point Damon.

Thanks,

Steven Owens

I was thinking about the same thing and you posted a second before me.

I was just typing my thoughts quickly... (this is what also gets me into trouble).

The idea is out there. Thanks to Damon for bringing it up.

I wish we could send a probe about 15-20 feet into a cut.

Best Wishes,

Steven

We might be able to with a thermocouple and an electrician's appropriately named "snake".

Worth a try. I've seen plenty of holes that I couldn't see the bottom of with a flash light. I think if you tried a few, you'd find one that was straight enough to fish a snake in.

Thanks for your posts.

Tom

the holes that go straight back with clear view rarely are the ones where you'd find such a thing. The inherent nature of how the rocks crack requires the erosion channels are around, behind, over, and under slabs of limestone. A single dime sized hole on the surface leads 100 different directions in a very short distance back.

I'm not saying that it isn't worth a try, just that I am pessimistic about success with that method.
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org

Yep your theory sounds good Steven and Damon!! Could you imagine an Alterna baby eating the first time offered. If this was the case I think it's time to get into Alterna big time!!!
B

I just posted my thoughts.

Best Wishes,

Steven Owens

have a very late hatch, no feeding that first year before hibernation, have a batch of babies come up eating early spring.
The May/June gatherings out west would be different with everybody bringing a bunch of babies with them, you think a trip is expensive now.... Try one where you hunt the habitat at night and deli cups during the day.

Lance

Dear Wife, I spent the usual 600 on the trip. However I must also mention that I collected a XX county animal and then had to pair it up with XX that I purchased from XX.

Awesome... Alternapalooza.

Best Wishes,

SXO792

If some people come forward who've found a hatchling, we can compare the dates they were found to the dates wildcaught gravid females lay eggs and at least get a guess of the wild incubation temperature.

Of course we'd have to assume some things: 1)most alterna in the wild lay their eggs around the same time. 2) We can tell a hatchling from a month old snake. 3) wild caught gravid female's gestation cycle isn't sped up or slowed down in captivity.

It seems like the consensus is they breed in June. Maybe the eggs are laid underground in July, incubate at 65, and hatch in 100 days in November. The snakes would probably not start looking for food until Spring. Difficult feeders seem to have a better feeding response after brumation.

Just thinking while I type.

Tom

Of the 12 gravid females the I have witnessed being collected in Val Verde County, all deposited eggs on near the 10th of July. One gravid alterna I found laid eggs on the 11th of July, and another by a companion on the 28th of July. Other deposition dates range from late May to late July.

Of at least three hatchlings I've found, one was collected on Labor Day weekend, one on October 1st, and the third sometime in mid September. All had already shed for the first time.

I would say this aspect of natural history is poorly known at best. I know of no data on egg laying sites or duration of incubation in the wild.
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org

Based on July 10th and late Sept, that would put the incubation at 9-11 weeks, pretty much what we'd expect in captivity at 80°F.

Of course it's completely unscientific - but interesting to me none-the-less.

Thanks for the post.

Tom

is that hatchling alterna are exceedingly rare in the wild. One "possible" reason is that the majority have not hatched by the time most collectors hang it up for the year (typically sometime in September).

I make trips during every month of the year and hatchlings are not easier to find in October or November, I can promise you that.
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org

I always thought that the hatchlings were more inclined to stay back in the rocks, were just less adventurous in general... Maybe as a response to predation at that size?

Lance

just as are adults and sub adults, for the most, and except under certain conditions.
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org

How do you know they were hatchlings? What constitutes a hatchling? Could you see the yolk mark or whatever it is called?

Just curious if they "could" have been older.

Thanks for all your expertise.

SXO792

Disclaimer: It is very hard to convey feeling and emotion through email and posts. Please assume positive intent when reading.

>>How do you know they were hatchlings? What constitutes a hatchling? Could you see the yolk mark or whatever it is called?
>>
>>Just curious if they "could" have been older.
>>
>>Thanks for all your expertise.
>>
>>SXO792
>>
>>
>>Disclaimer: It is very hard to convey feeling and emotion through email and posts. Please assume positive intent when reading.
-----
http://www.hcu-tx.org

How about an Endescope {sp}? You know the camera on the bendable cable. Or how bout those cool bendable cable cameras that SWAT uses. Wouldn't it be awesome to really see what's going on in some of those holes!!!
B

What if you see one deep in a hole. If you are like me, your wheels would be turning on ways to get it out once you have made your observations to take some better pictures...

Best Wishes,

SXO792

I've been thinking about this for some time.
Some thoughts:
- If an animal is in a cave situation, the only way to get to a temp any different from 70 degrees would to be for the animal to approach the cave entrance.
- Humidity in caves is high, sometimes at 100%, but the nearer the entrance, the less humid.
-Darkness would be a factor. In a spot too far from the entrance where no light can reach, young snakes may not ever find their way out.

Some inferences:
Since temp regulation in caves is relatively simple, greybands need do almost nothing but sit and wait for food. Lizards crawl in and sleep in the very cracks where the snakes lie. If they are in a place where water occasionally drips through, all the better.
Some cracks would definitely be better suited for egg deposition, since there is very little detritus in most caves other than what gets washed in by floods and such. A snake would seek these out and may even nest communally. However, given the almost endless series of cracks and fissures in limestone country, there would be many places to find suitable nesting sites.
In short, there would be almost no occasion for a juvenile alterna to expose himself for a couple of years until the urge to breed drives it to search for a mate. All bodily functions - eating, digesting, defecating, shedding, etc., can be done in a relatively small space. Therefore, the few we find exposed are responding to an extremely rare stimulus whose needs can't be met in its particular place.
-----
V.P.
Austin Herp. Soc.

weren't greeri eggs found in the wild????....i seem to remember that around the early 80s.....whatever the depth of the nest is would be key.....is looking for nests hunting???......to find these nests...perhaps when one sees agravid on a cut moniter her movements ...mark the crevice and slowly dismantle the rocks in the area......or use the snake cam to record were she lays up......crap, this ALMOST impossible......all these years no natural nests have been found....there's reasons why....my alterna hatch after everyone's ....and i do usually offer food, those that don't feed take a nap....that will usually induce feeding.....this hatchling brumation til spring is a common survival technique in many species....

I found what I think were greeri eggs (they were definitely snake eggs of the right size) along with a live adult greeri and a dead adult under a very large caprock in Durango in the early 80s. It was the first greeri I found. The eggs were fairly fresh and certainly not from the previous year. I'd have to backtrack my field notes but I think it was in July. However, I don't think that has any bearing at all on the debate about when eggs hatch in west Texas. The habitat for the greeri was high elevation pine woodland! Nice country to field collect in the summer.

Very interesting thread. Thanks for bringing this up. Sounds like noone knows of alterna eggs in the wild?...
--Henry W.

Tom,

I have an idea on how to estimate the temperature of egg incubation in the wild.....there were several alterna found gravid this year. As near as I can tell, at least three clutches were laid in the middle of July....if someone would let us know when they see the first hatchling....again see, not collect so we are HB12 correct...we could work backwards. That is, we could assume that the first baby is approximately 2 weeks out of the egg (I know....this is sounding weaker and weaker)...going from the middle of July to that date...taking away the two weeks, would give us a guestimate as to incubation length in the wild. Days of incubation can be converted into temperature....I get 65-70 days for incubation at 82 °F....I know there are others out there who have other incubation vs. temperature dates....and viola.....we have a guess as to the temperature....OK, i'll go back to cleaning cages...sorry...gmerker

I have found few neonate alterna in the fall, but they have been late September. The latest was, I think, Oct. 1 and it appeared to have its first meal in it.

{ have found a few gravid basking, didn't take rock temps as the radar guns weren't available back then. I have however taken surface temps and temps 8" in, 12" in and there is quite a difference but I've seen surface temps on the rocks which were way above air temps.

I rarely get my eggs above 80-92, usually use room temp which is usually upper 80s. I'd have to go through my notes for incubation times but 56-64 days is the range which stics in my mind.

Also, I've always gotten way less eggs from WC females than people do from captive stuff, largest clutch I can remember from a wc was 7 and overall the eggs are larger and the babies are larger than from cb stuff.