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The war on books

FR Sep 17, 2007 10:36 AM

Ok, the real truth is, there is no war on books. The problem is NOT the books, its the people reading them.

Books of all types, are not to Teach you, they are more to make you aware of something. Wait, that really depends on what your use of those books are.

For instance, academics of all types, work with books, they discuss them, Argue them, compare them, debate them. They do that, then write another book from the books they read. The new book is the current understanding or acceptance taken from the other books. Their passion, their love, may not be the actual subject of the books, but the books themselves and the authors who wrote them. These fine folks discuss these books, and somehow think you can come up with an answer from the books. They want/do debate a subject from the stuff in the books. They think the one with the best memory of what they read in the books is the winner of a debate.

But somehow, there is more then academics. Unfortunately, the subject of this forum is NOT academic, its an applied art, its something you do, Its practiced. This makes for a devision of how people look at those books.

Lets take a common example of how this would work. Its excepted in the world of varanid academia that ALL varanids are solitary. If you took a written test, that would be the correct answer. If your answered, varanids are solitary, you would be correct.

As a keeper, I keep monitors. As in the discription OF THIS FORUM, to "keep and breed monitors" The monitors breed very very poorly when kept solitary. On the otherhand, when kept socially, they breed in a manner one would expect from a wild creature that has lots of predators. That is, they produce LOTS AND LOTS of babies on a regular basis. And That is very true by the way.

In our case, you know, ones who actually keep them, if you answer they are solitary, you would be wrong. As the results have clearly expressed they are not solitary. They are, many different degrees of social. (all social animals contain different degrees)

You see, with a subject that requires applied information, what you read is not judged by you the reader, but judged by results gained from applying that information, to the subject.

This is where the GREAT DIVIDE occurs. Because there are varanid practioners these days, and ones with a long and successful history, there is now a divide in what should be considered USEFUL information.

To rehash the above, academic information is information discussed/debated/theorized, between academics and not for application, but instead to reach a common interpitation of the literature. In an applied subject like the keeping and breeding, all applied data can be judged by ACTUAL RESULTS.

The academics are always want to apply math to animals. So lets use that to express a point. A simple academic math problem, 10 10=20(10plus10equals20) is absolutely correct. But with a subject like ours, 10 plus 10 equals, 0 to 300 aprox per year. Yea, per year, as if they live longer then a year, it will change the result. What you say, explain that! 10 males plus 10 females has the opportunity to kill eachother off and equal zero, or produce lots of babies and equal aprox 300 per year. But if they live ten years or more, it could equal zero to many thousands.

How well you the keeper applys your husbandry will determine what the actual answer is. Funny thing, this is exactly how it works in nature. In nature, 10 males plus 10 females will without question result in 0 to 300 per year. Of course over time, it could easily result in thousands as well. Now compare the academic math to applied, to our subject math. The answers are so different its crazy. Academics must be dumb as a stone.

Sadly, the truth is, they are dumb as a stone. When it comes to living animals. Sorry, but we all are, only the varanid biologists are amoungst the dumbest. They seem to be stuck between a rock and a hard place.

Let me tell you how dumb they are. They are so dumb, they do not understand the difference between academic information and applied information. They are so dumb, that some of the premiere academics came here to argue academic data, against actual recieved results. In fact, they are so dumb, they thought that words would override results. They were so dumb they thought that words, any words would overpower a clutch of babie monitors. How friggin sad is that?

In an applied field, which is what keeping is, one clutch of babies overrides all the books in the world. Its this simple, you can stack all the monitor books up in a pile and they will never ever produce one single baby monitor. Nor will they keep a single monitor alive. I imagine they could be used for shelters, you know, Retes boards or the like.

OK, back to the subject. You the readers ARE THE ONLY ONES RESPONSIBLE for understanding what is academic and what is applied. Not me or those authors. YOU YOU YOU YOU. The truth is, I loved reading those books and Scientific papers, I just did not hold them as the holy Grail. I hold the subject as the holy grail. THE ACTUAL MONITORS ARE the holy grail. Their results trump all data/information in books. That is here, where we are keeping monitors(an applied field)(if done really well, an applied art)

The academics are and should be free to debate and theorize and write/publish any subject they want to any extent they want. But you lads are the ones responsible for understanding what is academic and what is REAL. REAL FOR REAL MONITORS, not paper monitors.

SO many of you what some big war with those like me, against those who are academics. There is no war or rift. I produce tons of varanid data on a daily basis, they the academics discuss data in their books on a daily basis. Its you that have to pick. Its you that are responsible for getting it right or wrong. Its you that are responsible with the lifes of your monitors. Sadly, its the monitors that suffer or prosper in an applied field.

With that said, I do not suffer, my monitors do not suffer, when I have a great debate with some academic or other. After any of those discussions, I simply go feed some monitors, dig up eggs, sort out babies, etc. Also, they do not suffer either, they simply go back to reading and writing and teaching academic knowledge. WHO SUFFERS IS YOUR MONITORS. Your monitors suffer because you keepers do not understand CONTEXT. Academic information vs. applied information, are sadly out of context to eachother. I only say, sadly, because it gives you the oppertunity to be wrong.

Lastly, even information taken from actual in context results, if applied wrong, can result in failure. In fact, that is often the case when working with living breathing animals.

I think academics are weak, they are afraid to face failure. So as long as they are academic, they never fail. As a keeper, failure is at the end of very single road we take. Our joy is, the successes we experience along the road to eventual failure. All monitors we keep WILL die, sooner or later, its what occurs in the middle thats important. And If I contributed anything to the keeping of varanids, its one simple thing, LIFE EVENTS. Longevity is worthless unless life has some meaning. LIFE EVENTS is key. Cheers

Replies (5)

HappyHillbilly Sep 17, 2007 12:42 PM

Personally, I don't see a war on books here, or even academics, for that matter. I think a comment or two got misinterpreted several threads below this one and it kind of snowballed.

There's nothing that's been said within this forum that will keep me from continuing to read books on things I want to learn about. From a newbie's standpoint, we need books. We need caresheets. But like you said, it's up to us as to what we apply & how we apply it, period.

Like I've said before, I can pretty much go either way; I can dig into the academic/scientific aspect just as easy as I can the keeper aspect. I try to maintain footing on the keeper side of the fence since it's aspect that got me here.

With that said, and kept in mind, the way I see it is I do see a slight divide, but I'll stop just short of calling it an all out war.

Those of us that have only been here for a year or so don't know all the background/history of this forum & it's members. I've just about got a handle on it from reading the archives. What happens, in my humble opinion, is that someone with from the past will post in a bit of testy, hasty manner to something that FR says. This person (no specific individual) is usually of the academic/scientific aspect, therefore their post is sometimes considered to be academic/scientific against keeper. However, that's not entirely so.

I've seen the same people respond differently to other members, in a very polite, informative and effective way. So, I think sometimes it's personal between two people but it appears to be a war of the aspects. This can create a feeding frenzy among newer members that don't know about the past.

Dang, I've already typed more than I wanted to and I hope I didn't carry this thread in the wrong direction. Frank, you know how to get it back on track if I got it off. I just thought I'd share my viewpoint of how things could be misinterpreted as a war on book, academics and/or science.

As far as books go, I'm a tough critic of 'em. I've read many books on many subjects and I've yet to find a single book that had it down pat. Just go to show that we're all human and we all have our own opinions, just make sure they're your own opinion & not that of someone else's.

Have a great day!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

FR Sep 17, 2007 03:26 PM

Hi Mike, for the first time, I do think your emotions took you off track. Please reread my post. I believe I stated, or hope I stated, there is no war. Its all about the reader taking the information in context. I stated, its about the reader, not the books or the author or academics.

What I find funny is, In a GIANT debate with a varanid author, it took ten minutes for him to state, our papers are NOT for keepers. If that was so, why are they so upset when we state that here.

For instance, in a keepers forum, we should expose what is USEFUL and what is not. Its not personal in any way. I would think thats our task.

In order to advance our husbandry. I would think learning what is important and what is not is VERY IMPORTANT and basic.

I may be wrong but, when you take a math class, you should be upset if the teacher hands you a book on welding(i mention that because I just welded my arm) By the way, there is math in welding. As there should be keeper important information in natural history. Cheers

So please, try again. Cheers

HappyHillbilly Sep 17, 2007 08:04 PM

> > > Hi Mike, for the first time, I do think your emotions took you off track.

Ha! Ha! Nah, not my emotions, but rambling thoughts & lots of thoughts on other thoughts. I was busier than a one-arm paper hanger with several pressing things and thought I could throw together a bit of an addition to your post as well as tell you how I saw things from the sideline since I didn't really participate in the previous discussions.

I could've picked a better title. I chose that one intending to show that I didn't see a war, either. The message I was trying to convey, well, I reckon' I had too many different butterflies in my net at the same time.

I tell ya what; let's scratch my first reply and let this one here take it's place. We'll keep the title that I used for this one "Chapter 2."

Message body:
Yeah, I don't see no war on books, either! We need 'em, I read 'em. Well........, OK, I at least look at all the purdy pitchures. Heeheehee!!! At least I know how to apply the picutres. Elmer's School Glue.

Check the forum if you get a chance, I've got a Q posted.

Catch ya later!
Mike
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Sighthunter Sep 17, 2007 06:56 PM

Happy Hillbilly, If you wrote a 400,000 page book with 10,000 pictures about monitors (notice I used the word) and 500,000 people read your book 498,000 people would be impressed (if the pictures were clear and interesting). 498,000 people would talk about it. The point being most people do not have the time or resource to step foot in the field or flesh out the truth about the text.

People who write books are human. Humans make mistakes. If I had to write about every monitor species in fine detail I would either be God or a savant if I did not make mistakes. Frank framed the equation perfectly in my opinion but there is no monitor Bible there will never be a monitor Bible. There are good books, OK books and books that were written because someone wanted to write a book, nothing more. Not one book will ever lay an egg!
-----
"Life without risk is to merely exist."

sidbarvin Sep 17, 2007 06:39 PM

Maybe this will help. Me, I don't care much about scientific mumbo jumbo much as I am a bit simple for all that. I do understand plain English and would like to think that I have an above average amount of common sense. It does not take much for me personally to get your piont, Frank because I have no agenda other that trying to learn as much as possible about how to better provide for my monitors that they may be monitors, ha ha if that makes any sense. So I can see the whole post rather that only the things I want to see because really I am not in a position to have an opinion or become offended unduly. I read most all threads on this and a few other fora and I gather what I can use and forget the rest.

I am a but a humble carpenter, heh heh. If one asks me for a job, I return the question with a question of my own "What can you do?" If the prospect replies, "I can build a house." or "Whatever you want me to do." I will more than likely hire them if I am in need of a body at that time. If the prospect answers my question with the statement "I went to trade school for carpentry", I pretty much have already made up my mind that the answer is a big fat "NO,I am not looking for anyone right now."

Every time I have hired one of these kids It has been the same. They want an experienced man's wage for book "knowledge" that is not applicable on the jobsite. They do not learn easily since they think they already know everything from studying the books and building a few sheds in the school parking lot, heh heh. The preconcieved notions they have lend themselves to selective hearing and voluntary blindness, ha ha ha.

Roger

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