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Our next project is an expanded housing area for our Timors. I have plans for an upright corner enclosure with ample climbing area. (approx 5-6' tall x 4' wide x 3' deep)

Im tired of using wood and TONS of sealant. Any suggestions??
Keep in mind, that this will be in my LIVING ROOM, so it must be asthetically pleasing.

Thank you all, and best regards,

Michelle

Personally I think wood can be very attractive. I have a stack of 6 vision cages for snakes, I trashed all the melamine ones a while ago, I think the plastic and melamine ones are about as ugly as you can get.

For lining the interior, I think FRP looks nice, it will clean easily with a brush and water; it is durable and waterproof. It is not a cheap solution but nice things are seldom cheap.

Too bad this enclosure sucks for monitors...

--Robert

Seemed like I hit a nerve! Hehe

Dont get me wrong, I LOVE wood! I just didnt know of any better ways of sealing it than what Ive been doing. Whats that stuff youre talking about? Do they sell it at Home Depot? Aprox how much a sheet? How would you use it around 2x 4's in large cages?

Rgrds,
Michelle

I just am unnerved by the claims of 'furniture grade' enclosures that look like they came from IKEA.

Yes they sell it at Home Depot in 4x8 sheets. For the life of me, I cannot remember how much they cost, but I think roughly $40. Fast food places use it alot. It is about 1/16" to 1/8" thick, made of a composite of plastic and fiberglass. I would back the FRP with something as it is somewhat flimsy.

For an indoor cage that small, I would avoid 2x4's like the plague. I would just use good 3/4" plywood (not construction grade, oak preferably) make a box, brad/nail/staple and use construction adhesive on the entire joint. As long as the cuts and measurement are correct and straight, it will be very strong when it is completely assembled and dried.

Here is another pic, of one (when it was being built and when done) that is in my garage. While not near as pretty this 4x10 w/ divider probably cost less than half of the oak 4x2. Of course, the oak enclosure looked nice to me, but it didn't work as well for the monitors.

In case you haven't noticed building the enclosures is part of what I find fun with reptiles. Good Luck

--Robert

These are the two wooden cages that I built. The big one was my first cage build
Gator's Enclosure 7'x3.5'x3'. This cage face has been modified twice. Both times to keep Gator is nis cage. He now has a fully landscaped cage complete with fake plants that he destroys.

New Enclusre 54"x26"x24"
This cage has also been modified. The screen is still there but there is Plexiglass in front of it. Still working on it but it's mainly complete.

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Christine :>~
A good friend will come bail you out fo jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn that was fun!!".

I tip my hat to you, I couldnt possibly construct an enclosure like that. You go girl!
Seriously, if I didnt have my b-friend around, my lizards would all be living in cardboard boxes...or aquariums(not much better). You see, men are good for SOMETHING! Hehe, just kidding boys! I luv ya.

Those do look nice.

If you replaced the screen/plexi with real glass they would be really nice. I think they are nicer than the ones I see for sale, well if you ignore the bed frame. hahahahaha

I'd go deeper on substrate, but I do have burrowing fiends of monitors.

--Robert

Gator's dirt is in his cage (7'x3.5'x3') is around eight inches deep. But for some odd reason he doesn't burrow or even dig. He is such a weird monitor that he Doesn't even hide. Glass is hard to have cut to fit. I do need to replace the Plexi in both cages. It scratches really easily and it's even broken easily.
The second cage pictured is empty right now because I didn't build w/ the thought of burrowing in mind. Whoops. I'll have to use it as a snake cage.
Thanks
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Christine :>~
A good friend will come bail you out fo jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn that was fun!!".

Heres the deal about digging and burrowing. Savs dig and burrow, period. That is there life. They dig in termite mounds, under boulders, in dirt, etc. In fact, I remember Danniel Bennett posted a pic of a large, for nature, sav, at its burrow.

The problem is, monitors are a bit smarter then us. If its not right, they do not complain or try to make it work(how would they know how?) They simply ignore it. But that does not mean they don't need it.

I sometimes explain it like this. We are using computers and they are very quick and can show us lots of things. But if its not in the computer or internet, then there is no way for the computer to recognize it or bring it up. It only shows whats in computers, period.

Therefore, what your giving is not close enough for the monitor to recognize it as useful.

I find that monitors are expert, but only in what they recognize.

You as a human, must understand, that there are constants with monitors and digging, hiding is one of the major ones.

By the way, what ever happened to those finchi? F

But that is nothing uncommon between you and I because we view monitors differently.
I have owned Gator all his life. He has been given choices over and over again and still does. Even with two feet of dirt Gator still never dug or burrowed. He has many hides in his cage but he sleeps in his same spots none of which are in a burrow or hide. The depth capibilities for dirt in his current cage is limited yes. It's eight inches not two feet.
Again Gator is very different from other monitors that I've owned past and present. He's the only monitor to have ever acted like this. He welcomes human affection and even asks for it.
I have read Daniel's book. Hell Gator's picture is in it! It's on page 68 figure 56. Because of the fact that Gator in no way fits the normal monitor criteria and/or temperment is why I was asked for pictures of him in the first place.
Is it so hard for you to believe that a monitor just might choose to not hide or burrow? Why is it that you refuse to be open minded to the possibility that a monitor doesn't fit the bill of what all your monitors do on a day by day basis? All my other monitors hide, burrow and dig. Gator chooses not to.

The Finschii are doing great. They eat a diet of fresh killed mice and roaches. I haven't been able to get chicks for them. Due to a severe out break of New Castles Disease none of the dealers are selling them and for some reason I am unable to have them shipped in also. I see them every once in a while. They are interesting to watch when I get the privilege. The female has let me be present twice when she has eaten and has even come to the front of the cage to check me out after finishing her meal. I have found that they do not like crix and they ignore them, and they will not eat F/T mice. I might try to get some pics of them this weekend but I won't promise. They're the only monitors that have absolutly no contact with me other than to put food in there and change their water. They are either underground or in/under a hide some where. But that is to be expected from a W/C monitor.
Thanks
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Christine :>~
A good friend will come bail you out fo jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn that was fun!!".

It is hard to believe that it wouldn't hide or burrow.
I have been told beccari don't burrow, they do.
Dumeril's don't burrow, they do.
Etc, etc......
Having said that, my beccari won't burrow in the same thing the dumeril's burrow in, the dumeril's won't burrow in the same thing the ackies do.............
I think you get the point.
Please take this post in the spirit it is intended.
Good Luck

The problem here is looking too narrow and eliminating possibilities and interpreting monitor behavior through only one lens. Monitors have a need for security and satisfy it by hiding. The best option in the wild is to build a system of tunnels. That provides a constant for them. These burrows also provide other important benefits and needs for them.

In captivity there are different variables at play. In an enclosure with a variety of items to hide under or between or behind, the need for a security burrow is lessened. Especially when the caretaker respects these hiding areas and treats them as off-limits. Add to that the type of interaction the keeper has with the monitor. If the monitor recognizes the keeper as a non-threat and no other threats present themselves, then a security burrow is unnecessary. The same result is achieved through hiding under or behind or wedged in other things.

As for a burrow providing more than just security, if a monitor can achieve those needs in other ways, then a burrow becomes less vital. Of course, that is influenced by the monitor's own feeling of security. A monitor must feel secure in achieving its needs. If it does, then a burrow becomes less important for meeting such a need.

In the end, because a monitor chooses not to dig a burrow does not necessarily mean the substrate is bad or the environment is subpar. That may be true. It may also be the case that this particular monitor is meeting its needs without a burrow.

Fortunately, monitors are smart enough to know there is more than one way to achieve what they want. Now if monitor keepers could just accept that.

Just an alternative, unpopular opinion.

You can word it, play with it, do what ever you want, that simply does not change the fact that her Sav is a monitor. and like all monitors, either captive or wild, their home is the most important part of their life. If she wants a monitor that is imprinted on people, sleeps in a corner(pet shop style) and is, i guess the term insane is good, then she is welcome to it. She has the choice to listen and try an understand, or not, but really, the monitor has what?? no say in the matter. I bet I could get it to burrow, in what, ten minutes. But I guess thats experience.

If you want your monitors to be abnormal and against the grain of what monitors do, go for it, its not my problem. But I would think you should approach a monitor with what is normal to them, not adnormal. But again, your the genius. you really know better.

You should also know there are exceptions to just about everything. But do you really recomend going by the exception???? of course you do.

Again, you make me laugh. Tnanks F

Funny... I could have sworn the following few sentences were in my previous post:

"In the end, because a monitor chooses not to dig a burrow does not necessarily mean the substrate is bad or the environment is subpar. That may be true. It may also be the case that this particular monitor is meeting its needs without a burrow."

Note: "that may be true." Her substrate attempts might have been terrible. They might all have been fine.

I can probably get it to burrow in 10 minutes as well. How? By taking away everything it has learned to use and providing it with nothing else suitable except dirt. I could also spook it, act like a predator, or change the routine it knows and it would probably resort to burrowing as well.

Note the "...this particular monitor..."

Monitors are capable of following multiple paths to success. Her monitor has seemingly found such a path. Not all monitors will follow that path - hence the multiple paths.

Please Cricket, snatch the pebble from my hand. (if you can).

It could be, it may be, it ougha be, funny game u play. F

I stated my thoughts on the matter.

You've stated... whatever it was you stated.

If you care to discuss monitors further, by all means post something monitor related. Perhaps conclusive proof on the dozens of ways I am wrong. Until you have such conclusive proof, your comments fall in the same categories of could have, should have, ought to, etc. as mine do.

If you do not care to discuss monitors further in this thread, then I will hope you agree with me to let it end with this post.

I stated, Savs burrow. Like in termite mounds, in the ground, under slabs, etc. Now if you want to research that, please do, Try Daniels books and articules for a start. Then read any book or paper on the subject. There is no need to believe me. Heck I know nothing. TRY READING

Then you may want to go look, if you really don't believe me or the books and papers. I know, I went and looked at the monitors I am interested in. Are u too lazy?

You can ask the locals why they carry digging tools when looking for Savs. hahahahahahahahahaha

You are still funny, but i guess thats an added bonus. now its over. F

Do you even know my name Frank? You should it's posted right there. Last time I checked my name was not "her" or "she".

Why do you care how deep my monitors substrate is? What does it matter to you? What, becase he doesn't act like every other w/c monitor out there? Or should I say the way your monitors act or what you have read?

Gator is 37", in a 7'x3.5'x3' cage with eight inches of dirt, hide spots, even short climbing logs. Fake plants are even in there. He has all the choices in that enclosure. I don't make him do this or do that. Gator does everything of his own free will. I repeat why does Gator have to fit everything you "know" a wild caught is? Gator is healthy, vibrant, and very active. Shouldn't that be more important to you?

You say I "don't understand his needs, and what a monitor is". I have read many monitor books. I own some. I have given him choices. But I don't understand? I think it's you that doesn't undertand him. Having never personaly expierenced something is going to mean that you don't understand it. You need to understand Frank that Gator makes choices and you should consider opening your mind to the fact that he make the choice not be what a w/c monitor is to you and what you have seen.
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Christine :>~
A good friend will come bail you out fo jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn that was fun!!".

Why not "Thanks, I'll take that into consideration?"
or
"Don't treat me like a jerk!"

Anything but a rebuttal.........
It's obvious you care for your monitors, why not try something different?
Two foot of the wrong kind of dirt is as useless as astroturf. Why not try something new?

I kept my first monitor on astroturf, then bark chips, then mulch, then crappy dirt, then dirt that is a little better....
Don't fall into the trap of hating the messenger so much you ignore the message.
Good Luck

I'm not saying that I'm not taking into consideration what Frank is saying. I had CA mountain dirt trucked in to put in there. I didn't go out and get potting soil or anything like that. The dirts holds humidity well and yes will maintain shape for a burrow just not a deep one.
Unfortunatly there are circumstances beyond my control that keep me from modifying the cage again, buy my personal life doesnt need to be put out for all to read.

The picture attached is of my Female Finschii. Her tail is sticking out of her burrow. This is normally all I see of them.

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Christine :>~
A good friend will come bail you out fo jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn that was fun!!".

Is Gator your boy that has the habit of scentmarking EVERYING including you? I remember when you mentioned that before. I was totally blown away at hearing that a reptile could develope such a bond with its human counterpart. Perhaps you are exploring parts of the monitor psyche that very few have been able to. We shall call you the "Monitor Wisperer"! Hehe.

Anyways, I believe that your experiences with this animal can really shed light to what these little beasties are truly capable of in a captive situation. Not just as a captive, but an interactive companion.

Gator has done some very interesting behaviors to say the least. He has even tried to bite and tail whip my ex when he tried to get close to me. Gator has slept in bed (I can feel the verbal lashing coming right now) with me and when my ex has gotten home Gator would pin himself up against me or lay on me and hiss and put up a fight. Sometimes Gator got his way and was let be and sometimes he was kicked out. How many monitors have these types of behaviors? Gator is the first from what I know of.
Impossible for a monitor to be bonded with a human, No. But to find that is very rare!
In this picture does he look like a "normal" monitor? When that picture was taken he had been playing in dirt and was going to shed, he'd been laying on my lap for about an hour when the picture was snapped.
Thanks

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Christine :>~
A good friend will come bail you out fo jail, but a true friend will be sitting next to you saying "Damn that was fun!!".

Especially when you say they are your first ones. Wow, I'm impressed.

I'm finding that the caging thing is all part of the learning curve. I'm building some big ones now around what I HOPE will be functional for both lizards and humans. The only way to find out, is finish the cage and insert lizard. Then I will see what works and what doesn't. I hope the monitors don't spurn my efforts.

For making the wood last, I went with two part epoxy paint, since noone's heard of FRP up here. It cost a ton of money, and was hard to work with, and the fumes absolutely kill you, ... I will let you know if any of that was worth it in a bit. If it lives up to it's claims, I should be able to use the bases as koi ponds!
Cheers. D.

Dont you think that would work?
I love your enclosures! I wonder if linoleum of some sort would work on the inside as well? Its kinda soft though huh? Ill have to shop around for the plastic sheets. Your idea is much better than using caulking to seal the inside like Ive done in the past! I swear I lose a few billion brain cells for every cage I seal! Nasty stuff!

I have never tried linoleum, I would be concerned that (as you mention) it is too soft.

You could use 2x4's (I have), but I would limit it to where it is necessary for strength.

Here is one that is 6.5x2.5x3, which is completely the simple box concept, all plywood and FRP. I have had probably a lot more than 800 lbs of dirt in it without problems (except the wheels needed to be replaced with heavier duty ones).

The sliding doors on all except the oak are just windows from Home Depot mounted backwards, there are two things I would think about if you want to go with sliding doors or windows

1) Get windows / sliders with actual wheels, the teflon strips do not glide near as well and you will be sorry. The large glass on the oak enclosure is 1/4" plate, and I got the tracks at a glass shop. They were not cheap, but I started with the cheap ones, and the window would not slide as smooth as I wanted (the glass is too heavy).

2) Give adequate depth for substrate, look at the enclosure above and compare it to the ones in the garage post earlier, I built this before I built those. 1 foot is not nearly enough, a 2 foot dam will allow deep substrate and the monitors will not be at eye level with the windows, which helps keep dirt out of the tracks, and I think the monitors feel more secure when they are not completely open to the world.

Now for some clarification. I am pretty anal about this stuff, so take what you want and ignore the rest. Anything that seems really clever was a borrowed idea (mostly from two people I respect very much), so I cannot take any credit for it. The only thing that is mine and mine alone, is the color blue....

Oh well enough rambling for tonight.

--Robert

I use vinyl flooring on the bottom of my melamine cages (under the substrate). I cut it to fit, then toss it out and replace it several times a year during cage cleanings. Melamine is water-resistant, of course, but the vinyl just gives the cage added protection from all the water my guys splash around, and it makes cleaning cages a lot easier.

Where do you get you door unit from? We constructed sliding doors out of metal u shaped runners, wooden frames and plexiglass. Big mistake using plexiglass! From the heat, it is warping and now the doors scrape against eachother! Its been less than a month!!
Live n learn!

np

Hi,

I used a shower stall for my timors...it is in my reptile room so I don't really care about looks, but it would be easy enough to make some sides to use as a sort of covering to make it more attractive for your living room. I got the idea from the Mike's Monitor site (which hasn't been up recently when I've checked).

My friend who is a cabiner-made me a really attractive frame for the front, a cap for the top, and I papered the inside with dark green contact paper rather than leave it white. I put lots of branches and cork bark with the substrate on the bottom - works great except for the occassional cricket escapes.

Best Regards,

Phil Black
VaranusWeb.com