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I have an adult angel island male who is always kept outside. I went to check on him yesterday and he didnt really move. When I picked him up he kind of like twitched almost as if he was trying to move but was somewhat paralyzed. I can not see anything visually wrong with him. He is breathing but not moving at all. He has been eating on a regular basis and until yesterday his behavior was fine. Anybody ever run into a problem like this? Any help or ideas would be great. Thanks...Travis

P.S. I dont know how to get that collared pic of the message. Lol. Sorry

Geese Travis, I'm sorry to hear that.
I've had my adult hispidus trio outdoors for a few years
and have never had such a problem as you described.

Did you check him all over for any visible sign or swelling
throughout his body and all points from maybe an insect
bite? Including the inside of his mouth incase he might have
snacked on a visiting black widow for instance and got
bitten in the process.
I also live in So Call and know that the spiders especially
are out in force at this time. Whenever I go out in the yard
I have to remember to wave my hands in front of me "like
a mad man" (I'm sure my neighbors must think). This keep
me from walking into all the webs.
There's also lots of bees and wasps as the fruits and flowers
I feed some of the critters often attracts them.

Is there anyway he could have climbed up on a high branch
or tall log and possibly slipped off and fell possibly injuring
his spine? This could easily happen while sleeping or napping
on a high branch.

About the only other thing I can think of is he ate something
toxic ... maybe some leaves or blossoms may have gotten
blown into his cage from a neighbor's yard somehow.

I realize you posted this yesterday so things may have changed
(for the better I hope).

Hope to hear better news and if you took him to a vet by now
hopefully the vet may have come up with a possibly theory as
to what is causing this.

Keep us posted,
John
PS:
You can go to your photos at PetHobbyist and edit that
picture. When in the editing page go to the bottom and
click on delete.

The only things that come to my mind are...

Too much vitamin supplements causing toxic levels. I've had this happen several times over the years. Some signs are muscle twitching/spasms... much like metabolic bone disease, hardening of the muscle tissue, swelling, and loss of appetite. At low or early levels it is easily reversible by just feeding lots of fiber and food containing lots of water. I must add... I am not a vet, however this was pointed out to me years ago and since I have backed off on the amounts of vitamins offered. The water and fiber will help flush the system quickly.

Too much protein also comes to mind. Again, fiber will absorb excess amounts of food before digestion preventing a lot of issues.

Insect bites mentioned in previous posts.

My gut tells me that it is a dietary issue especially if the chuck is feeling "stiff" or has spasms. These types of issues can show their ugly faces in an instant. Chucks also seem to be much more sensitive to dietary problems because they are so specialized for living in arid environments.

An example that I never thought about until looking into tortoise diets is... Take any type of grass, fruit, or vegetable...Alfalfa was the example I read... If eaten fresh, or dried too quickly will have a much higher level of protein than if naturally dried by the sun. These small amounts of protein can add up quickly especially for desert/arid occurring species. Especially if the species is an herbivore.

Not knowing the diet you offer your Chuck, I'll share the diet that I've been using with mine.

Collard greens by the bag full! Dandelions(leaves and flowers), various weeds (I don't know the names, I went by pictures and scientific names), grassland tortoise food (dry pellets), hibiscus flowers, dried Bermuda grass, timothy hay, and an occasional superworm. I supplement with vitamins once a week, and add calcium with D3 every feeding. I was offering vitamins 2 times a week, but started noticing some of the signs I listed above and cut back to once a week. I dice everything up except the collard greens, and add a bit of water to make it stick to the chopped greens.

I hope this helps, or gives you some ideas! Also, if anyone has any suggestions on the diet that I am offering please comment.

-Kory

Hi Kory,
As Travis stated, there were not warning signs. That one
day he was simply fine while eating regularly and just his
usual ol' self and that the very next day he found him in this
poor state.

I'm curious if when you experienced this problem if it the
muscle stiffness and twitching was overnight or was it
more of a gradual change that you saw coming in say, a
few days/weeks?

Your diet sound good. I too feed a high fiver diet along
with "safe" flowers and fruits. Also a few worms but merely
as a treat. I do offer daily calc/vit supplementation but in
extremely low amount.

John

Hi John!

When I experienced the problem... stiffness/spasms it came on extremely fast without any real warning signs. I just went through this with a wild chuck back in June/July. In this case he was nearing starvation when I caught him. He could barely hold on in the rocks and was rather easy to remove.. Poor guy!

When I got him home he began feeding within an hour. I'd never been so lucky with an adult male chuck. Anyway, between April and the end of June he plumped up and gained all of his weight back. His skin was really loose and hydrated and all seemed perfect.

During that time he was feeding primarily on mustard greens, and lots of weeds. He also was showing a huge interest in superworms, grasshoppers and moths. So I just offered him tons of everything including supplements.

After a few months of heavy feeding he just suddenly stopped eating, and became very rigid, and while being held one could feel tiny spasms throughout the entire body. I knew right then that I had over did it with the vitamins. This condition came on overnight, and lasted up until only a few weeks ago. He is now doing extremely well, and acting like a healthy chuck again.

While the actual vitamins may not be to blame, the other things contained in a multivitamin powder are certainly capable of causing problems. There are tons of amino acids, L-Glutamine, and other ingredients that will act like steroids if taken in too high of a dosage. Like I said before, I only offer the vitamin supplements once a week, or even less now to the chucks. They seem to do much better that way.

I would say that the condition did come on within a 24 hour period. I can not be 100% certain though because I really was not handling him every day. I can say this though, he acted completely normal and ate from my hand one day. The next day his colors were very drab, and he just laid in the corner as flat as he could possibly make himself. He would move if coaxed or nudged, but would stop after only a step or two and return to the flattened state. His cage was plenty warm / hot, and he preferred to go to a cold spot. He stopped eating on his own for about a month or so. He did not loose any weight in his tail, but thinned out everywhere else. His skin "hardened" and his muscles were stiff.

Hope this helps, and I hope that the Angel Isle Chuck makes a full recovery from what ever caused the condition.

-Kory

I'd like to way into this and this is just speculation... If your outside cage is not fully covered, I have seen possoms around my cage looking for a meal, one bite or clamp down in the right spot. I would suggest having an X-ray if there are bone issues or spine issues that should show up real easily. Also In California I feed mine some wild weeds, and never had a problem, always stayed with certian safe ones I knew, but I once fed one of them the flowers from some weed that was yellow--don't know what it was and he ate it and had severe reactions pretty close to what you described, is there any possibility he did get a toxic something into his diet. I sort of concur with Johns shot at this because he seems fine or didn't display any real issues that were apparent and then bam he was sick. It does sound suspicious. NOw I have another crazy thought that just came to me? Do you have more than one, like another male? IS this a male? Maybe they had a fight, its not uncommon, and they will definately go at it, while it is past breeding season, is that a possibility? Apparently your not seeing any marks on the body to make you think of an external force such as this or.....? JUst thought I'd throw in my two cents,these are very hardy lizards as you know and very seldon get sick.
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www.phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I keep waffling ... had a similar situation in some ways but not similar in others. Decided to post even tho this is probably not helpful to your experience.

Bought a tiny angel island chuck from a pet vendor in Vegas. She was a doll, ate well, tame, seemed fine. Kept her inside with several other chucks and a new UVB bulb. A couple days after I received her, her back legs were totally paralyzed, the front ones moved only minimally.

I immediately recalled a pic I'd seen years ago of a baby green iguana against a black background, apparently just hanging there suspended. The pic was supposed to demonstrate total paralysis due to lack of UVB lighting of any sort.

I called the vendor in Vegas and asked if he keeps his juvie angels out in the sun, thinking the shift into a sunless (tho UVB'ed) home could have precipitated the paralysis due to the change in UVB level. The vendor does NOT house his chucks outdoors. The vendor offered to trade me another chuck for the sick one but I thought I'd try something first.

Not knowing what else to do, I put the baby angel outside in the sun (with shady spots) in a Reptarium cage. Within one day, she was moving in a drunken way; within two days, she was FINE. Completely normal. I kept her out there for maybe a month and then brought her back in, fully expecting to see a relapse. None occurred. She now seems extremely healthy, has grown a lot, and jumps up on my arm everytime I reach down into the cage for whatever reason. VERY tame and awesome.

Don't know WHAT happened to my angel. Virus? Bacterial infection? Trauma from being stepped on by a bigger cagemate? I can only guess and am very lucky she's good to go now. Hope this gives you some insight, but doubt it ... you already were keeping your chuck outside, probably with sun access, so this is probably not the least bit helpful to you. Good luck with your angel. They are the COOLEST lizards in existence.