Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Was at a herp club meeting last night and was fortunate enough to listen to a speaker that obviously had some experience in dealing with and breeding hots at a younger age but has since pursued croc's of various species as a profession.

In chatting with him he talked about successes some zoo keepers have had in "training" (I call it conditioning) animals, specifically Green Mambas in this case to associate certain things with food and other things with more innocuous events such as cleaning and transport thereby reducing the level of excitement of the animal.

Like most keepers, hot or not, I make an effort to smell/taste differently when handling than when feeding to reduce the possibility of a bite. But it seems that the folks working with the Mambas conditioned them so well that they (male and female) had to retire to their respective hides to get fed. No hides, no food. Wrong hides, no food. It was represented as being so successful that these normally very active animals (as I understand them to be) barely move at the vibration of unlocking/opening the cage. Cleaning is not a threat to them nor does it elicit a feeding response. Likewise moving the animal.

Recognize that a lot of keepers feed in different containers for the purposes of reducing this instinctive reaction but can't help but think that just the transition to the "feeding" enclosure will excite the snake. The idea of conditioning the animal to respond to certain stimulii and do what you want them to do as a result makes sense. Same cage or no.

Any insight out there?

Thanks in advance,
Jeff Nichols

Jeff,
I'm gonna hafta think about this one for a minute or two....

G.

K,

Take your time, seemed odd to me too. I can't even get a feline to do what I want let alone a reptile.

Regards,
J.

You know Mr. G. you don't really hear much about Pavlov's Mamba. Most behavioralists remember the dogs. Maybe I shouldn't take up your time with this. Besides as it was represented there was no bell involved... Don't waste time on it.

Regards,
J.

Well, I've thought about it. I think it might be possible. I'm going to try it out on a large male Dendroaspis polylepis to begin with. I think a rolled up newspaper should work, along with offering him pinkies (sort of like dog biscuits) as treats when he does it right. I'll let you know how it goes.

IF you survive. Know you are kidding but would hate to lose you, if you are not. Know you know better which is why I responded as I did. No matter, it didn't make much sense to me either. Sometimes the guy that has the mike is the authority. Not always, as this thread will attest. But sometimes... We all need to be aware of what we say to an ignorant public (and I include myself in that description).

Regards,
J.

This may differ for certain snakes but... my western diamondback wants to bite me a LOT more than she wants to eat. So the whole experiment would be wasted on her.

You do hear about large constrictor owners doing certain things during feeding so the snakes know whether to expect food or just routine maitenance. So... maybe ask them, I guess.

But I would never trust conditioning to keep a mamba from biting me. Conditioning barely works on the dog.

N/P

Yeah, I'm kidding. That's a good point, though...about the ignorant public. I didn't think anyone would actually be stupid enough to try it, and the chance of someone that stupid actually having access to a Mamba is pretty remote, but you never know.

I have to say I'm somewhat of a skeptic on the whole idea. I really think there's no replacement for sound handling technique and housing. Shortcuts and gimmicks only lead to trouble. I can see something like this leading to handlers with a false sense of security, thinking tha the animal is always going to behave as expected. Anyone that has ever handled Dendroaspis knows they are anything but predicable. They will do what you expect 9 times out of 10, then do something completely unexpected. The problem is that you never know which of the ten times he's going to change his MO. Even though dendroaspis appear to be one of the more alert and intelligent species, I don't think that they have the mental capacity to actually be trained. Couple that with the fact that they are easily exciteable and you have trouble brewing.

I was watching Shark week the other day and they showed a shark tank with various species of sharks. The sharks were trained so that each species had its own seperate feeding time. They would do this by sticking patterned signs in the water. The sharks learned that when their sign was stuck in the water, it was their turn to feed. This avoided feeding frenzies and too much competition.

Although sharks are probably smarter than snakes, they are still considered "stupid" eating machines. Yet they can be trained in remarkable ways. Who knows, with an intelligent snake, similar things might be possible.

I had just gotten two corn snakes but I only had one feeding container at the time so I fed the female in the container and I fed the male by holding the pink for him to take and then I'd also hold it as he took it down so none of the aspen would get stuck on the pink. So, he knew my hand coming in the cage ment food... but over time I showed him the difference between play time and feeding time by the way I entered his enclosure. To pick him up I'd just go in without hesitation directing my aim for his mid section and just picking him up. To feed him I'd go in slow, stopping in front of his face so he could smell the pink and he'd take it. Soon this snake even seemed to learn the speed of my hand coming in the cage and would either duck his head somewhat (or turn it to flee) when I was going to pick him up, and raise his head somewhat making ready to smell the pink when I came in slow.

I also have some corns now that will just cruise in my hands when I take them out when I want to mess with them, and yet if I show them their feeding container... as I'm about to put them in they will stretch out and reach into the box and latch onto the pink before I've even had a chance to put them down. So, they've learned what the box is for.... and they don't attack me in anticipation when I don't put them in the box.

Then too... about 6 weeks ago I got this very large (4.3ish foot)aggressive Mexican Black Kingsnake that had only been feed in his container. No socializtion, just used for breeding. I couldn't even walk in front of his aquarium without his attacking me. His feeding response was so terrific that I wondered how I was going to move him to his feeding container, and then move him again once he got the taste of food. I had to let him bang on a stick and guide his head away from me as I pulled him out. (I don't have a hook... besides, he probably would have used it to pick his teeth). Anyway.... with time and many lessons with his attacking the stick and the glass without success... I can now move my hand in front, and inside, his cage and he won't attack it... but after I put him in his feeding container... he knows what he's in there for and BAM!!!! He'll even reach up to grab the mouse as I'm opening the cage to give it to him. So... without a doubt... these guys do learn.

Sorry it was so long.

I LOVE these forums
MissHisssss

Zoo's are doing this with Crocs, Gators.. Monitors and snakes now. The conditioned response training. Especially with the large Monitors and Crocodillians this is beneficial since it requires no restraining to move them from place to place and food is used as a reward that also helps them obtain excercise in the training. There's no reason why different species of snakes couldn't learn this.. especially the hots who, to me anyway, have always seemed the more intelligent of the snakes. It only takes one look at a King Cobra to know thats a smart animal staring back at you. I own a juvenile Savannah Monitor who I've been working with this on as well.. and a Boa who can differentiate between feeding times and cleaning times quite well... He always retires to his hide during cleaning times.. but knows to come out when feeding time arrives to be moved to his feeding tub.

Knew they were doing it with some animals just didn't seem like Dendroaspis angusticeps would be a viable candidate. But then again, maybe the dangers associated with the animal make them a better candidate for making the attempt. Dunno, that's why I wanted to run it up the flagpole. Mebbe I should try with Drymarchon, they seem to be the most alert that I have observed. Besides, if I get it wrong all I'll do is bleed. Been there done that.

Live and learn....but not ready to try with Mamba's

Thanks for the inputs,
J.