Reptile & Amphibian Forums

A few weeks ago I made post regards to some observations I have made. I have some more info for those who are interested.
Below is a copy of some of the things I stated in my last post with updated information.
My female 2x het for snow laid me 10 good eggs this morning exactly 34 days after only one copulation with my male 2x het snow.She is only 12 month old 30in and weighs in at 300 grams!!
Male is 12 months old 18in and about 80grams!!

1.) SIZE is the biggest determining factor until the animal becomes old.( MALES 65g AND UP FEMALES 250-300g AND UP)
THIS BREEDING BACKS THIS ASSERTION!!

2.) Fasting MAY preceed or even indicate ovulation (many will begin feeding after they become gravid)
THIS WAS THE CASE IN THIS BREEDING

3.) Ovulation can occur without brumation and virtually anytime on an adult female 250g and up (I suspect light cycles play a role)
THIS BREEDING BACKS THIS ASSERTION!!

4.)Short brumation is all that is needed for high fertility.(4-6 weeks @ 55-60'F)
MALE WAS BRUMATED FOR 4 WEEKS FEMALE NOT

5.)Hogs can retain sperm from year to year
NO INFO

6.)What are the temp ranges for fertility? This is a question that remains unanswered.
THE MALE WAS BEING KEPT AT A TEMP RANGE OF 80-90', MOST COLUBRIDS EXPERIENCE A DECLINE IN FERTILITY ABOVE 85', THIS MAY NOT BE THE CASE WITH WESTERN HOGS. oNE COPULATION 11EGGS TOTAL ONLY ONE INFERTILE!
ExtremeHogs.com

I didn't know you were working with double hets for snow. I wish you luck, but the odds aren't on your side with only 10 eggs. lol I believe it's a 1 in 16 chance of getting the snow.

Did you breed some of your albinos to some anerys (axanthics)? Keep us updated Justin, I am dieing to see how the snows turn out!!

Robert

Currently 1.1 Snows have been produced by BHB, can't wait to see pics of them. This 2x het pair I have came from them last year. With 10 eggs the odds are more on my side than not, I have 62.5% probability that I will produce a snow in this clutch. But I am WAY satified with whatever I get!!The pair is only 1 year old!! and I have only a 4-5 months till I get some more clutches from her!!
Regards,
Justin

each egg has a 1/16 chance. More eggs increase your chances, but not proportionally. 62% chance is at best a guess, you might get 4, 2, or none, but you knew that.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Of course you can't REALLY give percentages..but I think this is as close as you can get odds wise..
Basically 100/16 X 10 is how I came up with my number.

Gotcha, but you know why that isn't correct I'm sure. Using your example it would follow that if you had 16 eggs then you would conclude that you have 100% chance of producing one snow. Reality is that if you roll a 16 sided die 1000 times that number may come up never, once, or 100 times. So when your number does comes up you have good reason to be excited.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

I think that the trick to calculating the actual odds for a series of events, you figure up the chance of it not happening (zero snows out of 10 eggs) and subtract that number from 100%. That would be [(15/16 raised to the 10th power) subtracted from 1]. Anyone got a calculator? Of couse, as Joe pointed out, all that really matters is what YOU end up getting.

Disclaimer: If I'm totally wrong, please keep in mind I took college "sadistics" (as we called) in 1977.
Come to think of it, our football team at UF finished with zero wins and ten losses in one of those years I was there. That must be why I've been so annoyingly pleased with the recent championships. I predict a zero chance of 10 losses by the gators this year.
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Lindsay Pike
Urotopia Uromastyx

what are the odds of winning a NCAA football championship sandwiched between two NCAA Basketball Championships, and then following it up with another NCAA football championship? For dem Gators it might be 1/16 or the same as each of Justin's eggs has of being a snow
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

I hope you get a snow or 10! Good luck!
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Louie

hey 10 snows would be nice!!

I don't think anyone could handle 10 snows. If that's the case you may have to send some my way! lol Congrats again
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Louie

Yeah, and then you could send a couple my way as well!! lol A person in the South wouldn't know what to do with all that snow! hahahahaha
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Robert Charvat
1.1 het albino Western Hognose

Just a quick question Justin, are you power feeding to get the female up to that size in only 12 months?
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Jenea
Guardian Reptiles

"When your memories are bigger than your dreams, you're headed for the grave" Author unknown

its not realy posible to over feed a growing snake, just onece they reach adult size you need to taper off

It depends on what you call power feeding...
Living in Texas I have literally seen hundreds of hogs and collected many. What I have noticed is that they have a higher metabolic rate than most snakes. So I keep them hotter than most and I feed them a small meal (i.e. one small mouse or hopper mouse per 200-300g) up to 2-3x per week. At higher temps they digest faster and are much more active(summers here are quite hot naturally). Do I consider this power feeding, yes and no..In the wild they feed frequently on small lizards, amphibians and the occasional rodent. Most of what they feed on has very little fat content..so in order to grow and maintain body weight they must be feeding often.
Being kept in captivity there diet on mice is much richer of course than in the wild. So if you consider this type of feeding power feeding than I guess that argument could be made.
Reptiles are oppurtunistic feeders in general. Taking what the can get.. large, small frequent or not. By design there able to accomodate and excell on such feeding routines. In the wild more food generally equals better health, larger size and more offspring.So why shouldn't this apply to captives as well?
Extremehogs.com

Cool, OK. So another question, what have you found to be the most effective way to get your western babies to start eating? Live, f/t, scented, unscented? Do you find them more movement oriented or more smell oriented?
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Jenea
Guardian Reptiles

"When your memories are bigger than your dreams, you're headed for the grave" Author unknown

If I'm not totally off here, I think when they are young, movement might be more effective for getting them to start eating. There was a video posted here awhile ago that demonstrated a nice trechnique for getting hatchlings to take mice. The key is to get them started on unscented, then you never have to worry about trying to switch them later.

If I'm out in left field, please correct me.
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Robert Charvat
1.1 het albino Western Hognose

Both actually, seems to be a combination of the two in a lot of cases.. but in some cases some are turned off by movement and thawed is easier.
I believe introducing food quickly after hatch is important, they almost seem to imprint on what's available in there enviroment, seems to make it slightly easier. Depending on what line animals I am feeding I get between 40% and 70% feeding on unscented..the rest usually will eat frog scent or salmon..I also have a scent recipe I am working with that so far has about 85-95% success rate with fussy feeders. I will share my results and "recipe" after I am finished with my trials to see if others have the same results. I have also sent some to a couple friends who have large collections of hogs to get there take on it. So far one guy was blown away by the feeding response it generated in his fussy feeders, I am still waiting for the other guy to get back with me with his results.

another thing is I need to gauge is how hard will it be to ween these guys off the scent??

Have you tried your scent receipe with tricolors? I have 20 tri babies that have not eaten for me yet.

So here is an observation with my tricolors. I have babies from one pair that will almost always eat from the get go. While babies from another pair require a great bit of effort to get them started, but once they start they are great eaters. Have you noticed any trends similar to that with your westerns?
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Jenea
Guardian Reptiles

"When your memories are bigger than your dreams, you're headed for the grave" Author unknown

Oh yeah..
The Extreme red line is the best feeding line of hogs I have ever had. They feed the best on rodents or anything for that matter.
Other locality hogs have had mixed results, west texas and new mexico hogs can be reasobale but midwest and or northwest locality hogs seem to be a pain.
Also many captive lines now feed excellant due to "survival of the fittest". In captivity that means the one that eats rodents best, so when people breed these animals together there pre-disposition toward rodents is passed on and perhaps strengthend. Genetics play a huge role in feeding response.

Try this , this is a little trick I learned.
Put the head of the pinky up to the tricolors mouth blocking some of the nose and kinda twist and push it a bit trying to get it's mouth open. Much of the time they will open there mouth right up and start swallowing. Be very still and patient. But try it..it works for me sometimes.

I've noticed that too.
Holding the food item to the snakes "lips"
tends to initiate a feed response.

Use a slight pressure, as if you were trying to push the pinkie into the snakes mouth. Doing this with a brained pinkie
(use a lot of cranial fluid-they like-a da juice!) will usually give you at least a 50% success rate.

In the past my thoughts were to wait them out but I have found that getting a weaker snake to eat is tough and was really stressful on me as well. So for myself I get them to eat whatever they will eat to start and the switch them over. The westerns seem to be very timid at first and get bolder with every feeding; the more frequent the better, like twice a week. I believe consistency in the way you feed (i.e. presentation) may also be a factor. Of the 83 westerns I have left all are eating unscented f/t pinks. At least 50% required scenting when offered food on the fourth day. This % changes every year with the same pairings, go figure! What is funny is how I am suppose to pass these guys off as cute little snakes that never bite! because that would be a lie! At least half of them when you go to open the lid plaster their mouth wide open against the lid. It’s quite comical to watch my wife when she helps feed or change water to here her say (hey hey hey now cut that out) as the snake scrambles over the 3 ½ in. lip mouth agape and ready to grab onto any available part of her its hilarious.

I've got a power feeding question for you Justin. I have a 07 Male Albino Hog. He has eaten 9 pinkies in the last 10 days. Every day I see him roaming around in the tank, like he's hunting, so every day I try another pinkie and he can't wait to goble it down. Do you think this is harming him? He's getting pretty thick. His feeding response is awesome, also do you think he could possibly breed this winter at this rate? Thanks!