Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello!
I've just got a question. What morph is this?
Best regards!!!

Looks like a Indian Star to me, we'll see what everyone else has to say.

Andy

RedoFootMan@yahoo.com

look similar to one of our g.e offsprings

here's the daddy on the left
which has these "chicken wires" patterns similar to those young g.p kiddos

Hi Kayt. The tortoise on the left in your post looks like an adult male platynota, not a G. elegans. So does the baby, unless it may be a hybrid. Do you have a photo of the mother? Also, can you please post a photo of the plastron of both the father and the little one for verification. One of the characteristics of platynota is 6 primary lines per scute and another is black triangles on the plastral scutes rather than many radiating lines as seen in G. elegans. You may have tortoises which are more rare and valuable than you thought. I am wondering if the person from whom you got the male was its breeder or a dealer who didn't know what he had? What was the source of that tortoise?

Hey Dr. Z!
I was wondering if you had ever seen or heard of hybrid G. platynota x G. elegans? Has it happened in captivity?
- Mike

Hey tracker meister.

about time someone get an update report on those Asian "temple" turtles (no, not da tecta sp.) where that should be da major culpit for yer topic don't you think?

>>Hey Dr. Z!
I was wondering if you had ever seen or heard of hybrid G. platynota x G. elegans? Has it happened in captivity?
- Mike

Hi Again. Sorry, but I believe I misread your post. I guess you were saying the baby in your picture IS a platynota and the father to its left is a G. elegans which is the father of the one in the first post of this thread, correct? If so I agree with your assessment. Disregard my first message, except for the distinguishing characteristics I mentioned. That part is accurate.

Sorry for the disappointment, Bill. His plastron is pure g.e

I also thought it was a hybrid but since there were no reports of intergrade (g.e) occurring in their native range (other than Indian/Sri Lankan crosses we see in captivity), so my guess is that these could possibly be those few that got away?
However, the mother is a gorgeous wide banded but one of the other sibblings has narrow banded, some suggested she carries different genes on each side of her egg pouch, what's your theory?

Does anybody have any information on the individual morphs of Geochelone elegans and could share with us. I mean detailed information on morfology of the star tortoises (how to recognise individual morphs).
And please answer my question I do not want to mix the morphs.
Best regards!!!

It is really not possible to tell the races (or what you are calling "morphs" of G. elegans apart visually or even by DNA testing. Northern Indian, Southern Indian, and Sri Lankan Stars are just three different geographic races of the species G. elegans. They may have evolved enough over time to have slightly different chartacteristics of size and pattern, but no one can just look at them and say where they originated. The only way I know to tell exactly what race you have is to know and trust the breeder or to know who collected it from the wild and where (very unlikely these days).

I had all three types of Indian Star Tortoises (G. elegans) and also Burmese Stars (G. platynota) in my collection back in the 1990's. I had the same DNA specialist who had been testing all the Galapagos Tortoises in the zoos around the world perform DNA testing on all my Stars. The three types of Indian Stars all have the exact same DNA. G. platynota had a different DNA and hence is a considered totally different species as it should be.

Now you're really making those seudoSri owners frown

So price drop should be on it's way I suppose? That would be great news for true pet lovers...can't say the same to those who flips them

Hi Kayt. The genuine Sri Lankan Stars are very beautiful and the adults are much larger than the Indian Star races. Also many of them exhibit pyramiding in the wild, which most tortoises do not. It is my theory that this may be due to a certain amount of inbreeding since the gene pool has been restricted to the Sri Lankan island for thousands of years. All that being said, true Sri Lankan Stars, even with their DNA being the same as Indian Stars, are still worth more because of these characteristics and because there are not really all that many of them available. The last ones which came into this country legally were brought here by a personal friend of mine in 1987 and 1989. Most of the ones available here in the USA today are descended from animals he brought here.

A number of years ago, certain unscrupulous individuals saw that the people who were working with the real Sri Lankan Stars were charging (and getting) more for their offspring than could be had for Indian Star babies. Hence, a number of them began selling fake "Sri Lankan Star" babies to the unsuspecting general public to make more money than if they sold their babies as Indian Stars. This worked for exactly the reason I stated: the two cannot be visually differentiated at the small sizes which are usually offered for sale. Now, a fair number of people who unknowingly bought those fake babies have begun breeding them and selling their babies, unwittingly continuing the misnomered Star problem.

The point I wanted to make is that when someone shows a photo of a 2"to 5" juvenile G. elegans and says, "What kind is this?" There is NO way to tell (without knowing who bred it and where their breeders were obtained, etc.). When the animals are fully mature, one can usually tell Sri Lankans from Indians. Adult female Sri Lankan Stars can reach as much as 15" and males over 8". THEN they can be told apart from their Indian relatives by their sheer size and also quite possibly by the development of the pyramided scutes.

Hello Bill, I'm getting a little concerns about your health because you miss my post again

What I meant to ask you was the egg-pouch theory, not Sri Lanka, I'm just curious if you could verify if the mother carry her eggs with the father's genes on one side and her own on the other as a separate compartment of sort?

Regarding SriLankan, by all mean you're trying to revalidating the authenticity of the genuine type, and if your theory was that we had a saturated gen pool, does that mean the days of genuine SriStars Albinos MORPH are about hitting the horizon?
Back to the Gelankan tossup pandemic; I wonder if those original individuals who first elevated SriStar to premium $$$tatus responsible for any part of this tragic?
But again, on the other side, Stars are Stars, they are beautiful no matter what, it's like dogs, some are dead serious about thoroughbreds...others just love mongrels to dead! Its human nature I supose

Anyway, while at this egg theory thingy, we received these 2 from our twinkle's cloaca this evening just a couple hours ago, it looks like a miss-carriage she just poop it on the flat ground, it's shell's undevelop and very brittles, almost like snake/terrapin eggs and has dings on it, have you ever been able to hatch these type of tortoise egg before?

Hi Kayt. First, let me assure you that the friend I mentioned and I were the first people to breed and offer genuine Sri Lankan Stars for sale in the US back in the early to mid-1990's, and that neither of us ever sold Indian Stars or hybrid Indian/Sri Lankan Stars and passed them off as genuine Sri Lankans. It was primarily certain dealers who started doing that, to get more $$ for their smuggled in baby Indian Stars (many of which died really quickly and gave Star Tortoises in general a bad reputation).

Second, a female tortoise could not have all of one parent's genes in one ovary and the other parent's genes in the other ovary. The parents' genes have already combined in her mother's eggs to produce her, and her eggs represent half of her personal genes half of which are present in each egg follicle in her ovaries. The chances that all the eggs in one ovary would randomly get only the genes provided to her by her father are probably greater than one in a zillion.

Finally, the eggs in your picture are undercalcified. Are those the only ones you have found so far? Is it possible that she buried others but not those as she got too worn out? Perhaps the clutch was laid too early due to a very large clutch or an infection. Or did you possibly induce her to lay by giving her Oxytocin? This can result in eggs being laid to early also. At any rate, I have never managed to hatch eggs with soft and indented shells like the ones in your picture. They usually go bad and grow fungus after about 7-14 days of incubation.

>>...Hi Kayt. First, let me assure you that the friend I mentioned and I were the first people to breed and offer genuine Sri Lankan Stars for sale in the US back in the early to mid-1990's, and that neither of us ever sold Indian Stars or hybrid Indian/Sri Lankan Stars and passed them off as genuine Sri Lankans. It was primarily certain dealers who started doing that, to get more $$ for their smuggled in baby Indian Stars (many of which died really quickly and gave Star Tortoises in general a bad reputation)...

_My take on this perspective was if those who first started have a chance to do it all over again, would repricing to a respective gap between Indian vs. Sri (as Mini® vs. MG® rather than Mini® vs. Maybach® in motor terms) the saga would be much less an impact than what it seems thus prevent this catastrophy from happening, I guess it's way too late now, money and greed seems never too far from each other which always the blame of most things, do you see an end to this from spreading especially in the US where there are no law to say that you can't mix turtle species and no law that say our "mongrel" turtle friends need to be put down like unwanted dogs and cats that got euthernized, which to me it's still the unthinkable things to do in this day and age regardless, but sadly it's their only solution

>>...The chances that all the eggs in one ovary would randomly get only the genes provided to her by her father are probably greater than one in a zillion...

_I'm keeping an eye on the other g.e sibling as it grows to see how close a resemblance it has on those odd symmetrical "chicken wires" patterns on their father.

>>...Finally, the eggs in your picture are undercalcified. Are those the only ones you have found so far? Is it possible that she buried others but not those as she got too worn out? Perhaps the clutch was laid too early due to a very large clutch...

_ Actually there were 3 in total, the first one she tramped over which triggered our panics, those two in the picture we received directly from her cloaca as she push it through approximately 5 to 10 minutes apart (during those in-between moment, what's unusual is that she even managed to do an errant to chomps down a small bunch of green then went back to the same wiggle spot!), she was that tame in most of her previous nesting that she doesn't mind and still carry on as we put our palms under her belly to catch her eggs as they came out which save a lot of time recovering and cleaning it, and yes, she did had a very large clutch early this spring, almost double the usual ones. Gone are the days where egg hunts felt like Easter on Halloween! (when our twinkles free-ranging like chickens,) the kids just love it as the eggs we retrieved expose on the ground even though a hit and miss it was, but we kind of miss that mini version of arriballa(?) badly

_My only thought on yesterday's incident was that she senses the rain that are coming (and it eventually did for the first time!!!(Halleluya!) after that awfully long, dry, overly-cooked summer we just had) and that she mistaken for her "Monsoon season" therefore her nesting process has been turbo-charged! and yes, this is the first time we got these "gummy balls" from her so let see what happen.
Animals have senses of their own don't they? wouldn't that be great if these little buggers qualify for a post at the local seismic lab to assist in earthquake, hurricane deterents and such, that would really put them in pal with K-9 and other useful group of animals and to prove that they are not just "beautiful rocks".

>>>...or an infection.
_which type?

>>...Or did you possibly induce her to lay by giving her Oxytocin? This can result in eggs being laid to early also. At any rate, I have never managed to hatch eggs with soft and indented shells like the ones in your picture. They usually go bad and grow fungus after about 7-14 days of incubation...

_Inducing labour?
sounds like a doctor's job! nah, that's just too high tech and too much work for us!

_Oxytocin?
Toxy...Tocix...Toxic...Just the name enough to make people crinch don't you think? Okay maybe not doctors! Are they USDA/FDA approved? is it the same stuff they do to chicken and cows which lead to "avian flu" or "mad cow" cultures when people ate them? and since when Toxytocin first got into this turtle hobby and by whom? the zoos?

...da lady's in trance right at this very momento

>>...The point I wanted to make is that when someone shows a photo of a 2"to 5" juvenile G. elegans and says, "What kind is this?" There is NO way to tell...

Ooops! I almost forgot, I thought I saw one of your post a few years back when you stated that you had a "painless way" of differentiating Sri from Indian...are you not?

Sorry if I poke your mind too hard

I believe I saw that post also, and it was NOT mine. I would never make that statement.

Unless possibly you took that verbiage out of context trying to embarrass me .... I have indeed stated many times, both publicly and privately, that there IS a way to tell if you have a true Sri Lankan Star --- by knowing and trusting the breeder who produced it.

>>...Unless possibly you took that verbiage out of context...
_I'm trying to keep it in if I can find that darn button or know how to work the quote/unquote function on this forum. any idea where they are hiding, anyone?
for now I'm just do it oldschool way (whatever that mean) as you looking at it, kinda messy though but you get the idea!

>>...trying to embarrass me ....
_You?... embarrass?...aren't you immune to all that by now, doctor?
you do sounds like my dad in recent year whenever he's on the phone, that he would drift into another completely different conversation and keep goin' until I get paranoid! (good thing he doesn't gets too grouchy when I yell) I suspect this is an early sign of him approaching that forgetful (alheimer?) age?

>> I have indeed stated many times, both publicly and privately,
_uh, uh, not me, never hear of that until now

>>>that there IS a way to tell if you have a true Sri Lankan Star --- by knowing and trusting the breeder who produced it.
...seriously, I thought you might be the able to tell them apart at the drop of the hat after seeing so many over the years

>>...I believe I saw that post also, and it was NOT mine. I would never make that statement.

ahh yes...such as the internet! I should have known better about clones

Hello!
Thank you very much Zovick. Very helpful information

Here is a group of my personal CBB Sri Lankan Stars which I held back as future breeding stock.

Closeup of one of my favorite CBB Sri Lankan Stars.

Have you ever had problems with runny noses?
Best regards!!!

runny noses in G. elegans of course
Best regards!!!

I would say that anyone who has kept more than 10 Star Tortoises in his lifetime has probably experienced a runny nose or two. Some of them seem much more prone to it than others. If it isn't too bad, it can sometimes be treated with this eye drop preparation: Neomycin, Polymyxin B, and Dexamethasone Ophthalmic Suspension Drops. These are available from your vet. Place the drops in each eye and also into the nostrils 2-3 times daily for about 7 days. If the runny nose won't clear up with the drops or is fairly severe right at the outset, you may need to use an injectable antibiotic like Ceftazidime or Ceftriaxone. The drops and the injectables can both be used at the same time also. Another note of interest: Baytril is not widely recommended any longer due to its harmful effect on the tissues around the injection site and pain upon giving the injection. Also, the other meds just mentioned are given every three or every two days, respectively, causing much less stress on the animals.

It sure looks lumpy alright, what so special about this one from your other bunch, does it runs to you when dinner bells rings? our twinkles will bite ye feet if you don't drop their feast quick enough

Now I have to crawl around on the floor and find my eyeballs!

I don't appreciate the hostile comments towards Bill. That was really rude and inappropriate.

I think the implication was that Bill posted an eyefull... much more than usual. I don't read any hostile intent.

(unless you meant to attach this to another part of this thread)

>>I don't appreciate the hostile comments towards Bill. That was really rude and inappropriate.
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Hi EJ. Nice meeting you at Daytona also!

I don't think Mox was referring to Carl's comments, which I am sure were simply his complimentary reaction to the photos of some very beautiful (I think) Sri Lankan Stars as you also stated. I believe Mox's statement was about other snide remarks made above by Kayt. I wish to thank all the people who emailed me privately to say they were also distressed by those comments and implications of my mental incapacity.

This is another fine example happen by chance, just to prove that one wrong thread could lead to a different dialogue...one wrong move could sparks a mass disaster!

I felt sorry for those in distress for this has nothing to do with personal stuffs but the animals in the subject, at least that's my main concerns, so loosen up people!

As for Bill, I'm sure he appreciates the free publicity for being outspoken in a place like this, people have different ways of express their gratitude so I guess I had mine...and you knew it from the begining of this bandwagon don't you...Bill? enjoy the ride

>>...I don't think Mox was referring to Carl's comments, which I am sure were simply his complimentary reaction to the photos of some very beautiful (I think) Sri Lankan Stars as you also stated. I believe Mox's statement was about other snide remarks made above by Kayt. I wish to thank all the people who emailed me privately to say they were also distressed by those comments and implications of my mental incapacity.

Hi Mayday. Glad you liked the photos. Nice meeting you at Daytona, too!

Don't worry eh? It WAS a compliment as you and EJ both noted.
I also believe Mox was referring the other post.
At least I hope so.

HiYa Bill!!
Nice meet'n youse,too,in "DAYTUNAS BLEACH"!! TATTOO PETE

LIKEWISE, MY FRIEND!!!

I. travancorica? Finally a mate for your old male?

Yes, Carl. I. travancorica it is. However, that baby is from the male bred to one of his daughters which were owned by George Ullman. The male and his daughters are the only real Travancores in this country so far as I can tell. I have been trying to find him a new unrelated mate since the female with whom he was paired from 1980 till 1996 died. Both were collected in the Kerala Province, India by my friend, Dr. Walter Auffenberg in 1961 (male) and 1964 (female). Here is a photo of "the old man".

That is just the neatest thing. A nice tortoise for sure.
But surely Walt had brought back others that might still be around? Weren't there others around in the late 60s and early 70s? Or have they all died off?
I love the yellowish white head that many of the Indotestudo have. It makes them very attractive animals.

The male and female I mentioned above are the only ones of which I was ever aware which Walt collected. There may have been others which have since died or otherwise disappeared, and Walt is gone now, too, so I can't ask him if he remembers others he may have placed with various friends back then. There was a smaller female imported and sold by Larry Lantz (Midwest Reptile Sales) in about 1970 which I traced down and bought in 1978, but it was quite deformed (pyramided) by then and has never laid one egg in the 29 years I have owned it, nor has the male ever shown any interest in her. I have advertised off and on, both in magazines and on the internet, since the breeding female died in 1996 trying to find other specimens, but everything I have been offered has always turned out to be I. forsteni.

Man, that is a frustrating situation. To add to that there have been so many I. forsteni being sold as 'Travancore' tortoises that I bet you want to scream.
Larry Lantz? Haven't heard that name in years! What a character!

BTW, they had a nice tribute to Walt at one of the recent All Florida Herp Conferences. Of course, the FMNH was his home base and when I was in the specimen collection a few weeks back I saw his name on many labels. He is missed there I can assure you.

...can't believe you squeeze in this one under the Starwagon, no offend again I hope but as rare as it can be, they are as pretty as our mud turtles out of water especially that baby in yer hand...ditto to the efforts, though

>>...I have been trying to find him a new unrelated mate since the female with whom he was paired from 1980 till 1996 died. Both were collected in the Kerala Province, India by my friend, Dr. Walter Auffenberg in 1961 (male) and 1964 (female). Here is a photo of "the old man".

>>I had all three types of Indian Star Tortoises (G. elegans) and also Burmese Stars (G. platynota) in my collection back in the 1990's. I had the same DNA specialist who had been testing all the Galapagos Tortoises in the zoos around the world perform DNA testing on all my Stars. The three types of Indian Stars all have the exact same DNA. G. platynota had a different DNA and hence is a considered totally different species as it should be.

May I add? Using his one protocol.

One must always take the time to consider other methods. For instance, we all know for a fact using certain DNA protocol we can test for INDIVIDUAL SPECIMENS. If we can see genetic variation of individual specimens, then a well tuned test will likely tease out some data separating the populations. If they have certain visual characters then the genetics that cause this are testable. Obviously, not with the methods used by your scientist. With further testing a technique could likely be developed to discern these populations.

DNA is NOT the be all end all technique for taxonomy everyone wants it to be. DNA tesing uses something called "base pairs". There are an infinite number of possible combinations of base pairs to look for. Choosing the wrong combination for the specific situation gets bad results every time. The problem is we don't know when this is true or not. Unless of course we get the results we were looking for and then we accept them as true!

In 1997/98 I supplied blood samples for a DNA study of "all" chelonia species. The researcher came back with ALL Trachemys, Chrysemys, Graptemys, Malaclemys, Pseudemys samples being the same SPECIES! Now if that is not a clear indicator of a mistake nothing is! He chose the wrong set of "base pairs" to test for.
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

sorry scott... couldn't resist.

>>>>I had all three types of Indian Star Tortoises (G. elegans) and also Burmese Stars (G. platynota) in my collection back in the 1990's. I had the same DNA specialist who had been testing all the Galapagos Tortoises in the zoos around the world perform DNA testing on all my Stars. The three types of Indian Stars all have the exact same DNA. G. platynota had a different DNA and hence is a considered totally different species as it should be.
>>
>>
>>May I add? Using his one protocol.
>>
>>One must always take the time to consider other methods. For instance, we all know for a fact using certain DNA protocol we can test for INDIVIDUAL SPECIMENS. If we can see genetic variation of individual specimens, then a well tuned test will likely tease out some data separating the populations. If they have certain visual characters then the genetics that cause this are testable. Obviously, not with the methods used by your scientist. With further testing a technique could likely be developed to discern these populations.
>>
>>DNA is NOT the be all end all technique for taxonomy everyone wants it to be. DNA tesing uses something called "base pairs". There are an infinite number of possible combinations of base pairs to look for. Choosing the wrong combination for the specific situation gets bad results every time. The problem is we don't know when this is true or not. Unless of course we get the results we were looking for and then we accept them as true!
>>
>>In 1997/98 I supplied blood samples for a DNA study of "all" chelonia species. The researcher came back with ALL Trachemys, Chrysemys, Graptemys, Malaclemys, Pseudemys samples being the same SPECIES! Now if that is not a clear indicator of a mistake nothing is! He chose the wrong set of "base pairs" to test for.
>>-----
>>AMAZON REPTILE CENTER
>>
>>NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES
-----
Ed @ Tortoise Keepers
Trying to keep the fun in Chelonian care

Well, think what you will, but I would really prefer that you did NOT add anything, as several of your statements are inaccurate. How do you know only one protocol was used? Additionally, just because your tester was "wrong", doesn't mean that other people cannot do it properly. One variable is the age and condition of blood itself when tested. Did you draw the blood personally? Possible causes of trouble could be that the proper preservatives were not used in the vials and/or it wasn't adequately refrigerated until the tests were done. What expert or institution tested your samples?

This testing was done by Ed Louis, DVM, PhD, of the University of Nebraska at Omaha who is a world renowned geneticist and who tested each animal's blood twice in order to test using both pairs of the accepted chelonian gene loci. He flew to my place, drew the blood himself, and flew it back in special refrigerated containers so that nothing would go awry. If you think you can prove him to be incorrect, by all means, obtain the various species I mentioned and have your own "expert" test their blood and then post the results here for us all to see. I am very anxious to see some of the naysayers on this forum put their "money where their mouths are", so to speak. It is always easier to say what is wrong with something than what is right with it. When this testing was done, it was state of the art technology. If it is good enough to discern the different races of Galapagos Tortoises (OMG, I can spell it!) in collections all around the world, then why isn't it acceptable for looking for different races of Star Tortoises or differentiating I. travancorica from I. elongata? And you imply he used "wrong pairs" of loci. How do you know what sequences he used for his tests?

Ed Louis has developed two genetic maps (one for each accepted pair of chelonian loci) showing almost every existing species of turtle and tortoise in the world, so I have chosen to accept his opinion. If you don't, fine, just don't try to imply that his work was incompetent or biased. Nothing could be further from the truth.