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Here is a male that I recently picked up from Archer County. Archer County gloydi are harder to get than Clay County.

Beautiful snake! I am new to hogs and have an opportunity to pick up a few adult gloydi. I have been doing research on them and it seems there are confilcting views as to gloydi-nasicus. Are they the same? Is breeding nasicus to gloydi frowned upon? With the conflict is it more prudent to stay sub species specific? If i were to breed them would i just call them westerns or are they a 'hybrid'?

Sorry for all the questions- i do not mean to jack your thread at all- it was just perfect timing

This my be a longer response than what you were looking for but here goes. I hope that I have answered most of your questions in my post below. However, I wanted to give you my opinion about ethics in snake breeding. I feel that it is your right to breed whatever animals you want together. Just don't misrepresent the animals. I try whenever possible to breed locality animals together. That being said, I have the luxury that many breeders do not. I know exactly where all of my animals in my breeding stock originated. If there is some question as to the background of a snake that I have, I let people know. I am also an locality alterna breeder and alterna people tend to be quite anal about this (I know that I am), however, most people who breed hognose could care less what locality it is as long as it is pretty (and seeing some of the animals out there, I don't even know if that care about that,LOL). I have breed animals from far different localities before if I had no choice, but I prefer not to. You are not going to offend anyone by breeding "gloydi" with "nasicus", at least I don't think that you will. And I think calling them "Western Hognose" is your best bet if you do. BTW, where are your "gloydi" from? I have been trying to find others working with them but have found very few.

In my opinion with two subspecies that intergrade so much and are so overlapping in terms of range..who's to say that the blood of a locality of nasicus ssp is really 100% pure compared to another locality of the same ssp etc..
Not much different in my opinion than line breeding for a desired trait. Except that nature is doing it through natural selection.

On a side not:
I Can't wait for that home DNA Test Kit to come out..that's when the fun really starts..LOL!!

You have an excellant collection of locale specific animals. Awesome work and Wonderful Pics!!
I have always been of the mind that Gloydi is just a range variant of nasicus. To me they seems to be stockier in build than many other localities that are considered pure nasicus the only other difference I notice is pattern(larger but fewer blotches) and that they seem to feed better on rodents. What differences have you noticed between the two and do you the the subspecies listing is warranted.

at the end supposed to read "do you think the"
sorry

I have seen many "gloydi" over the years. I will speak here on just the animals that I have seen from the following counties in NC Texas:Archer, Clay, Montague, Wichita, and Wilbarger. From these counties, I have hatched out several hundred locality matched animals and seen quite a few wild caught individuals. We are located in a transition zone between the rolling plains (grasslands) and the cross-timbers (deciduous forest dominated by post oak). Our hognose from our western counties (Wilbarger, western Wichita) tend toward the H. n. nasicus end of the spectrum. I agree with Justin that "gloydi" is a range variant dependent on habitat. The Western part of our "local" range is grassland and snakes from here tend to have rounder blotches, higher blotch counts, colors that are lighter (at least more tan and gray), and snouts that seem to be a little more upturned. Our Eastern portion of our "local" range (Eastern Wichita, Eastern Archer, Clay, and Wilbarger) is mixed grassland and oak woodland. The snakes that come from this part of the range tend toward H. n. gloydi end of the spectrum. These animals have more squared off blotches, darker coloration (many are browns and reds), lower blotch counts, and somewhat flatter snouts. I feel the reason for the pattern difference in these animals is the presence or absence of oak leaves. Emory rats and prairie kings tend to do the same thing as with blotch counts and coloration in this area (as well as others I would imagine). Excellent topic BTW. I am passionate about these animals. I would also agree with Justin on feeding responses differing per locality. That is why I have quit keeping other localities (South Texas kennerlyi for example).

I've found that feeding response is more
specific to the individual, rather than the locale.

A specimen of kennerlyi that eats well, always seems to eat well.
Specimens that eat sporadically, tend to always do so.

BTW, my South Texas kennerlyi rival any Lampropeltis and Elaphe
I've ever had.

Starr County, TX.

I agree that certain individuals will be better feeders than others, however, I feel very strongly that certain localities do tend to have more of those individuals than others. I am glad that you have had success with South Texas kennerlyi, however, I have had a very hard time with both hatchlings and wc adults from South Texas getting them to eat mice (and I have tried with many). I can only remember one wc West Texas kennerlyi that refused a mouse the first time that I tried. West Texas hatchlings can be a bit more stubborn, but usually take to mice much better also. BTW, did you get those headshots of the kennerlyi that I sent you?

I'm my limited experience I'm seeing some very local specific feeding responses in regards to kennerlyi. None from the local I'm working with will touch Tuna or Salmon scents. Not interested. Finicky adults show a preference to S. couchi (sympatric) over B. valliceps from my yard in San Antonio. I have yet to see anyone mention Quail or birds. I bet adult Heterodon from the local I'm working with will raid Quail and to a lessor extent Dove or even Wren nests and feed on both eggs and young they can swallow. It makes sense that Chicken could be a viable scenting tool. I'm going to test it.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Joe,

I can see where Heterodon would eat Quail eggs and babies since they are ground nesters, but not Dove or Wrens. Have you seen behavior from hogs that leads you to believe they are eating eggs from cavity and tree nesters?

Scotty

Occasionally Dove nest on the ground in the trans Pecos. I have not seen predation on Quail or Quail eggs, just something I think is highly probable. It's probably already documented on paper, but I haven't bothered to search for it.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

I found it in three different sources. Some of the interesting items listed as food for kennerlyi were Birds and their eggs, Snakes and their eggs, and baby Turtles. The usual suspects were listed as well - frogs and toads, lizards, tadpoles, salamanders, small mammals (Werler & Dixon 2000).
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

Joe,
Try scenting on a Cnemi or a Cophasaurus. Pop some tails off of some of the Med Gecks on your house and scent on them. Most of my West Texas snakes prefer lizard-scent to toad-scent (granted that I have only tried woodhouse and spadefoot). Let us know how the chicken scent works.

I've been having luck scenting with med tails, and sceloporus. I have one animal that isn't settled in yet and it got me to thinking.
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http://www.hcu-tx.org

I believe that Justin mentioned this in one of his posts and I tend to agree. Selective breeding "good feeders" certainly helps. Are your South Texas hognose WC or CB? My only experience with those animals are WCs and my F1s, none of which were good feeders. I am sure that there are good feeders out there, and if selectively breed for this trait, would be great animals. I have no doubt that your animals feed great, and they are very attractive as well. I am certainly not trying to discourage anyone from getting these animals from you, nor am I putting down your animals. I am just stating facts based on my experience with WC individuals. I think that selectively breed CB animals are a whole different subject.

Got the pics, thanks!
No offence taken by me.
I would guess them as F1.
As far as someone buying from me,
I don't sell animals that are not feeding regularly.