Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Before anybody crucifies me - I wasn't planning on acquiring a snake and de-fanging it. I see many snakes for sale and trade that have already gone through this [cruel] procedure, and would probably prefer that to taking on the risk of owning a highly dangerous snake.

My question is - if I were to possess a devenomized cobra, would California venomous snake laws still apply, even though the snake is no longer dangerous? Would I still need a permit?

I hope I don't get too many angry responses, guys. I know it's messed up. But it's too late to be pissed for a lot of the post-op snakes sold on faunaclassifieds.com, and at least I can give them a loving home.

Most laws read 'venomous' reptiles. The species is still considered venomous even if the snake has (unfortunately) been cut on.

Yes, Ca would still consider your venomoid cobra a "prohibited species"...The law makes no distinction between venomoid snakes and "fully loaded" ones...Simple reason really...if you breed two venomoids, what do you get? A bunch of fully equipped little death machines...

BTW, "de-fanging" a venomous snake does NOT render it "harmless"...the fangs are replaced rather quickly...it's the venom glands that are removed in a venomoid...not the fangs.

-AzAtrox

I'm curious to know: is there a procedure for removing the venom gland? I've only heard of "defanging" before, I didn't know it was possible to remove the gland. I've also heard that defanging was deadly to the snake, but then they seem to do it a lot to cobras. I've also heard that you only had to defang them once, but have thought that was un true because of the fact that they replace their teeth regularly anyways. Personally, unless the procedure is very dangerous or harmful to the snake, I don't see removing the venom gland being any different from getting a cat declawed. Can anyone fill me in more on the facts about defanging or deglanding?
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amery. corn snake (Morgan LaFay)
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (TBD)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
0.0.1 betta fish (Captain Morgan)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)

For many species the venom is step 1 for digestion of a meal. It is designed to start breaking down the tissue from the inside as well as the obvious killing of the prey item. Some people that I know who work with hots will let the animal strike at a thawed food item before leaving it in the cage.

Lance

that's interesting...I hadn't heard that either...so do they have weaker stomach acids that won't work without the help of the venom or something? It would be interesting to know the scientific facts behind that (I'm not saying you're wrong, BTW, I just like to know technical explinations too)
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-David

Check out my pet pics at:
http://www.myspace.com/obx_fisherman

1.0 ball python (Pandora - don't ask)
1.0 argentine boa (Prometheus)
0.1 hogg island boa (Andromeda)
0.0.1 brazilian rainbow boa (Inara)
1.0 kenyan sand boa (Diablo)
1.0 normal corn snake(Cypress)
0.1 amery. corn snake (Morgan LaFay)
0.0.1 banded cali. kingsnake (Cain)
1.0 tangerine honduran milksnake (Narcissus)
0.0.1 snow corn snake (Valkyrie)
1.0 amazon tree boa (Pegasus)
0.0.1 colombian boa (Athena)
0.0.1 albino san diego gopher snake (TBD)
0.0.1 sandfish skink (Slick)
0.0.1 fire skink (Phoenix)
1.0 dog (Luke)

the wife's pets:
1.0 bearded dragon (Leonidas)
1.1 ferrets (Ares, Enyo)
0.0.1 betta fish (Captain Morgan)
1.2 cats (Galahad, Ripley and Sassy)

I would not think they had any weaker stomach acid, but I could easily see such a modification of an animal reducing the efficiency of digestion. Also, you have to remember that venom is a very complicated recipe of enzymes... and as a result different species will have very different effects... Some will effect the nervous system and start turning off things like breathing, others will attack tissue or protein and there will be massive pain and swelling as well as dead / broken down tissue. And also worth knowing is that if you were to ingest venom it will not cause a reaction unless you have an ulcer or some other opening to exit the digestive tract before you could break down the enzymes as food. It would just be a nasty drink.

But back to my opinion, - no I would not recommend removing the venom gland on a snake. It is not just a defensive system that is no longer needed in captivity, but is instead a mechanism designed for feeding.

You can find some studies online about the digestive properties of venom...

Lance
A google search of Venom and Digestion

I have known keepers of venomoids, and while I personally do not condone this procedure, the snakes in question were as healthy and ate just as well as "fully loaded" ones...

In elapids, the entire venom gland is often removed....in vipers the duct from the gland to the fang is often severed and cauterized....yes, complete removal of the gland is possible but if done incorrectly poses serious health risks to the snake...

Again, i don't condone doing it, but I know a fair amount about it.

-AzAtrox

How would you tell the difference between the animal that is shooting blanks and the one that is locked and loaded? It is just one way to invite an accident, and who is going to "prove it", what if they are wrong?

If you breed them the offspring will all still be venomous.

In my opinion if you plan to keep hot snakes there are just no shortcuts.

I will also mention that about 12 years ago a freind of mine ended up with a de-venomized atrox. Some guy had it (not sure who) and was tired of it, he was going to take it out to west tx and release it. Now that plan was just stupid and was stopped. The snake was pathetic, the head was skinny and he would eat thawed mice just fine, but he just looked like an old scrawny snake.

Lance

"Personally, unless the procedure is very dangerous or harmful to the snake, I don't see removing the venom gland being any different from getting a cat declawed."

Short version is, yes it is very dangerous or harmful to the snake, at least as it's usually done. I'm sure it's possible to remove the venom glands safely &c., but the guys selling cheap venomoids online are probably using something along the general lines of a dirty Xacto knife in their mom's basements.

& in response to the original post--this "It's OK to buy a venomoid, once someone's already done it" viewpoint is silly. If you buy anything, you're financially supporting whatever means were used to produce it. So just accept that responsibility & decide accordingly, rather than hiding behind such a silly excuse.

Patrick

Defanging is done to Cobras in many Asian countries to render them harmless, so that they can be safely handled prior to being KILLED as food, traditional medicine, etc. It's also done in many countries by so-called "snake charmers", again, to render the animal harmless. Often, it's combined with sewing the mouth shut. The procedure is done with a knife, simply cutting away the entire part of the jawbone that holds the fangs. There is no concern for the suffering of the animal, nor the long-term impact, because the animal is destined to be killed, or is considered expendable.

Venomous snakes routinely shed their fangs and re-grow them, so simply pulling the fangs or breaking them off is a temporary thing. There are, as others have already stated, risky surgical procedures for removing the venom glands and ducts of venomous snakes to render them harmless, but even those snakes still have their fangs, and can still deliver a painful bite, plus, they will still produce fully-armed offspring if bred. There is also the risk that unless you know who is doing the surgury, you could still wind up being sold a fully-loaded snake instead of a venomoid, and you wouldn't know the difference. Venomoid snakes are still considered legally to be venomous, and should be handled as such.

S. McKenzie