Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thats right folks...................Ralph Davis did it this time.............and he did it BIG TIME!!!

A PURE WHITE PIED..........and a real POWERHOUSE!!!

Big Congrats man.........big congrats on a beautiful white worm.

If you do some searching you can see pics of it......Cough. . . Cough. . . Hint. . . Hint. . .

Jared
-----
~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

Go Check it out!!!!

how a Lesser het Pied bred to a Pied makes an all white snake?? Pieds are somehow het Lucy? I'm a little confused on this one...

I'm certainly surprised by it. All I can think is that like how the spider gene appears to increase the % of white in a pied for some reason the lesser mutation allows the pied white to go 100% (or maybe the normal for lesser gene prevents pied from going 100%).

were are u guys lookin at. ive searched every were and still cant find it.

It took me a little bit to find it too...lol, Try Page 8 of the Birthing Records...Pretty cool stuff...
-----
Executive Reptiles
Amanda Kingsbury & David Kendrick
www.executivereptiles.com

thanks for the help its greatly appreciated. wow all kinds of white snakes these days

Somehow the lesser lackes the necessary colors to make the normal appearing piebald. Meaning the dark colors.......so when it is crossed into the pied trait the areas that would normally have pattern, like the head and random areas of the body are now just plain white.

When he breeds that snake back to het pieds he should produce Normal Pieds, White pieds and lessers.

Jared
-----
~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

So phenotypically, it is a lucy, and genotypically it is a pied lesser. Man, and I was really hoping for phenotypically lesser/pied. Oh well....

I believe Ralph says it whiter than a Lucy.

Just to chime in, but there is no way for an animal to be "Whiter than a lucy" but it can be a pure white version of the lucy (No yellow splotching, purpling, etc).

Thank you!

TRUE leucistic means defective chromatophores, so you can't see pigment, any pigment. A totally Leucistic animal only has white skin.
-----
http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

even though Eskimos have a ton of words for types of snow...it's still frozen water...

looks white to me.....

a lesser pied with color would be cool......

white is white.....

genetically ,for breeding ,yea......better than regular white or pied.......still looks white....

.......regular "normal" old pieds are better looking.....

........2C.........
.
-----
.....too many critters.....
......too little time.........
.......
.
.
.

the white snake from this clutch is 100% hands down the "WHITEST" absolute ZERO patterned ball python on this planet..........it is a "White Piebald"..........

Bingo, although even a normal Pied is a partial Lucy phenotype.

Piebald is actually a form of leucisim -- now it was argued some time back that lucy balls weren't really leucistic - but I think this combination may put that to rest.
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons

Insert Silly Quote Here

Leucistic- All pigment except that of xanthophores if absent, producing an all-yellow appearance (Mattison, 1986). White, colorless, albinistic (Peters, 1964). Appearing as white (Barker, 2006). Absence of pigment (melanophores and xanthophores) through out the body with the exception if the animals iris; usually a solid white animal with black or blue eyes.

How dose a Piebald fit into any of these definitions?

Greg
Graziani Reptiles

2 or 3 people mentioned that in this thread. I THINK what they are saying is that the areas of white on a pied are expressing pretty much the same leucistic phenotype in those area as Leucies show all over...I agree with you. I wouldn't put it in those terms....

Pied = Genetic (recessive) Paradox lucy

lol
-----
_____

signature file edited, contact an admin. 2/13/06

There is a difference between Leucistic and Leucophore. Just because an animal exhibits an abundance of leucophores dose not make it leucistic.

Leucistic- All pigment except that of xanthophores if absent, producing an all-yellow appearance (Mattison, 1986). White, colorless, albinistic (Peters, 1964). Appearing as white (Barker, 2006). Absence of pigment (melanophores and xanthophores) through out the body with the exception if the animals iris; usually a solid white animal with black or blue eyes.

Leucophore- A white chromatophore (Holmes, 1979). One of two types of guanophores characterized by the presence of guanine in the form of granules (Peters, 1964). In general, leucophores and iridophores are both considered guanophores, but these two chromatophores should be distinguished because leucophores contain white granules laden with uric acid, whereas iridophores contain reflective platelets (Hama, 1975).

What needs to be identified is are the mutations exhibiting an abundance of leucophores allelicly joined. It also needs to be understood that all of the information available to day in reference to ball python mutations is strictly phenotypic. There is no biochemical or DNA research done to date on ball python mutations. In fact we do not even know which chromatophores exist in ball pythons and in what layers of the tissue they exist. There are a number of theories that cannot be confirmed or denied simply by phenotype.

Can they really get any whiter than this?

Greg

Graziani Reptiles

I don't know the citation, but the definition of Leucistic I am familiar with is defective Chromatophores, or absent. Either way, they aren't doing thier job of letting us see color.

Xanthophores, Erythrophores (don't know if BPs have them), Melanophores and Iridophores give our snakes their colors and iridescence. The Chromatophores gather everything together so we can see it.

So Leucistics can or can not (it doesn't matter) have
Xanthophores, Erythrophores, Melanophores or Iridophores. But it is the Chomatophores that are the cause of the mutation.

Just as Amelanistic has a defect in melanophores to block out black pigment.
-----
http://www.GilbertBoas.com/
http://www.BoaList.com/

When the arguement came up last year that there were no "True Leucistic" balls I headed to my college database and did a little research and found that true leucisim does not necessarily affect the whole animal. The arguers point was that Lucys have a yellow stripe thereby making it not true lucy - my research found that most true leusistic animals have yellow or red stripes. Moreover piebald is what would be considered partial leucistic. It's been well over a year since I did the research so I may not be 100% on it but if I remember correctly traits like albanism affect the snake in its entirety (for whatever reason - I don't remember) but true leucism affects the snake on a more cellular level which is why it doesn't affect the whole snake.
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons

Insert Silly Quote Here

That is awesome - but I can't figure out the eyes. Are they pink or normal? I zoomed in on one of the pics but couldn't tell....

Jennifer

I was wondering the same thing Jen.........look pretty wicked too!
-----
~ ASK ME ABOUT MY BALLS ~

I don't want to rain on the parade, but it's just another white snake to me! I truely understand why Ralph did it and I would've done the same thing! Not to mention the possibilities of what IT might produce coupled with other morphs, but I like the contrasted pied better! Just my opinion!

It might be a cleaner and brighter white than the others. I've heard that pied white is a different level of white from the leucistics so far.

I like it. I always liked the purer white in the pied and it's lacking in most white snakes. They all have had some other color. Yes, it's been faded, but it's still there. This looks like a "WHITE" snake

Quig
-----
Don't interupt me when I'm talkin' to myself

I'm with you - congrats and kudos to Ralph - but it's just another white snake to me too - but I do realize that there are those like white snakes and are really trying to find the perfect white snake and this would be it.
-----
Tosha
JET Pythons

Insert Silly Quote Here

It will be interesting to see if this white snake retains that pure white look as it ages. Even in the pictures of the hatchling it looks like there is a platinum was along some parts of the snake's sides....but this could just be shadow or the camera...curious to see what it looks like after a few sheds.
-----
PHLdyPayne

I thought I saw a very slight pattern on the sides. It is the pinnacle of the white snakes. This guy is trully pure white and blows any Lucy out of the water!
-----
In Loving Memory of the best Brother God gave me
Sgt. Arnold DuPlantier II
(Army National Guard, Charlie Rock Co.)
06/03/1979-06/22/2005
Support Our Troops

looks after the first shed and as it grows - will the color maintain or change?
-----
Jay A. Martin
Jay Martin Reptiles

Personally , throw it with all the other rwhite snakes .....bbllaaahhh.....I think the PIED mom is a platty sib to begin with , and that's why the "ALL WHITE PIED " was produced. The coolest part of a Pied is the scattered pattern blotches , why would you take that away and get another All white snake ? JM (very)HO

Dick-OSC

NP

just a hunch, but i think ralph has some pied axanthics that he is not showing us.

Genetically, Awesome!

Visually, it’s another white snake.

What I hope and dream for is a white headed pied. It maybe just be hopes and dreams but obviously we will never know….or will we?
-----
Dave
Phila, PA

www.DNReptiles.com
Myspace/DNReptiles
Photobucket Album

There are so many morphs that still havent been produced.....Things like this is what inspires me....
Kevin Stoltz
www.KMSReptiles.com