Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi:

Our male boa has a chronic upper respiratory which hasn't gone away despite everything our vet has thrown at him: Baytril, Fortaz etc.
In reading some back posts, I'm wondering if low humidity might be contributing to the failure. I'm not sure what it is, but I'm sure it's not in the 70%. In the past we've occasionally misted our 3 adults. Once in a while (more often if they've been lying in urates), we soak them. Midnight, the male, has always hated being soaked, and tries hardest to get out, even when his water is the same temp as that of one of our females who would stay in the water with the lid open.
This past time, when I took him out, his lungs were gurgly-- I think he took in some water in trying to get out. I'm not trying to stress him, and I certainly don't want to make his condition worse (we're again talking about whether it's getting to be time to put him down)--- from now on, should any "baths" just be done with wet washcloths?

Thanks,
Antigone

Humidity is definitely an issue when dealing with RI’s in boids and is critical in their recovery and prevention. The minimum humidity should be at least 70 to 75% with the temps about 90 degrees F when treating a boid with an RI. With healthy tropical boids, I would never let the humidity drop below 60%. Additionally, I don’t believe there is any necessity for your boa to be soaking as part of this treatment as long as the humidity is elevated. Actually, forced soaking could cause additional stress.

On the other issue, there are three main reasons why a specific antibiotic treatment will fail. The target bacterial species is resistant to the antibiotic being administered. The dosage of that antibiotic is incorrect. Or, the environmental conditions of the snake being treated are sub-optimal (temp, humidity, etc). If Baytril, Fortaz, etc. has failed, and dosage and conditions were acceptable, I would look at two other alternatives. You didn’t mention amikacin as one of the antibiotics used, but if it wasn’t, that would be an option as it has a different spectrum of activity than the others you mentioned.

The other alternative deals with histories of cases of chronic, unresolved RI’s in boids where many other antibiotics have been ineffective. Most of the above antibiotics have their main effectiveness focused at gram negative bacterial species. Tylan, or tylosin, is a macrolide class antibiotic that is mainly effective against only gram positive bacteria. It has been used successfully to treat chronic RI in boids caused by Streptococcus and Mycoplasma bacteria. Some people confuse Mycoplasma with bacteria of the genus Mycobacterium, which causes tuberculosis, but they are completely different. Tylosin will work well if the causative organism of the RI is Mycoplasma, otherwise it will usually be ineffective in resolving any other types of infections. One nice aspect of tylosin is that it is a very safe antibiotic.

Again, assuming dosage and environmental conditions were previously correct, there is possibility that your boa could have a mycoplasma infection, but that would be for your vet to determine and prescribe the appropriate antibiotic. Good luck and let us know how it goes.

Kelly

Kelly:

Thank you for the detail. When our vet is back in the office on Wednesday, I'll run it past her. I hope that we didn't shoot ourselves in the foot by not having it humid enough throughout all the medications. I think that we were actually giving a baytril/amikacin mix, but I'd have to go back home and check the notes.

Thank you also for the post about feeding our females. Since I don't really want to have to put out an order for RodentPro for only a few xlarge rats, is there any harm in feeding 2-3 medium rats (e.g. if 3, then 2 on Friday, 1 on Saturday), which is the largest size our local Petco carries?

Will definitely keep you posted.

Antigone

While humidity might be the lingering cause of the RI's, there are other reasons why an RI would be recurrant. Where any diagnostics done, or did the vet just go straight to antibiotics?

Parasites like lungworm and lung mites are rather rare, but if you don't know the history of the snake then it is a possibility.

If the respiratory infection extends down and is actually pneumonia, then rather invasive therapy might be needed to get rid of this once and for all.

If the snake is viral immunocompromised then the recurrent RI's could be explainable this way. If this is so, then breeding this snake, and allowing it contact with other snakes is a bad idea.

Sometimes it's a simple as the infection being fungal instead of bacterial, which would need different medications.

All of this cries out for diagnostics, like an X-ray, ultrasound, biopsy, lungwash, CBC ect. But also start with a digital hygrometer. They arn't expensive, but just like temperatures, you don't want to guess at your humidity.

Ian

Hi:

If I remember correctly, we initially had an xray and a lung wash done. I don't remember what the results were. As the male was the worst, he was the line for the females to follow. They were only superficially examined. Everyone was place on a round of amikacin and some sort of wormer---which we had a lot of trouble with and I'm sure that a good portion was wasted and I hope no small portion was inhaled. It came out the nose of at least one snake once or twice. Then we got the nebulizer and did a round of Fortaz. We actually started a round before that, but the drug had been out of the fridge overnight (the instructions to refrigerate had been covered) so it's doubtful that was any good.
No improvement.
The females don't seem to be declining, but then we haven't been handling them as much as we were previously. They were all in a nice warm closet together with lots of room and their didn't seem to be a point in taking them out into our air-conditioned apartment.
The male HAS been declining, but again, no signs of the IBD he was diagnosed with. And the bastard decided that if he was going to be going, he'd do it with a bang--for a sick puppy, he was a very active breeder. We have not checked gums recently, but there has never really been any mucus, just a lot of wheezing.
We're still trying to create humidity boxes for them all, as we have no other way of raising the humidity (which has been in the 20-30% range). We got them moss and I went into overkill trying to keep that wet. I'm backing down as I don't want to give them skin rot.
This is where we're at.

Antigone

This is coming to a personal decision. You have done lots for this boa, and I have supported the decision to euthanize similiar cases before. You'll have to choose what you are comfortable with. If you are happy that husbandry has been excellent to which it is not the reason the therapy has failed, then you know you have done your best to this point. Talk to your vet about this. What are there thoughts? Is there a next step that is in your budget? Is the snake currently suffering, and is there much hope for a good quality of life in the future? Time is usually on your side, as reptiles get sick, and heal slowly. Perhaps your vet can recommend some pain management during this process. Perhaps any income from the babies can support your final efforts to get your male happy and healthy again. See also my response in your other thread.

From my side of the computer, that's all I can really offer. Some snakes take a huge amount of time and work to recover from an intense respiratory infection. Others never recover. The rest is all your personal decision.

Ian