Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all,
So I've never bred snakes before, and it'll be a good year and a half to two years until the little girl's ready, but I was just wondering... A cross between a normal Okeetee and a Reverse Okeetee would just leave me with normal looking corns, yeah? Thanks in advance!

-Jaime

P.S. This is Little Prince... She's about 2 feet long and eats like no one's business. Cheers!

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2.1 Normal Ball Pythons ('04-Captain Jack; '05-BoBo; '06-Queen Latifa)
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake ('06-Little Prince [named before she was sexed])
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Blondie)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Ho0dz)

Assuming compatible, hidden hets...100% normals het for amel.

Good luck!

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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

.......
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

BUT...... if both parents are good looking okeetees then the "normal" babies may be okees as well. BTW was that female the "okeetee" you were refering to? I personally would not call that an okeetee unless she is from the hunt club region.
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-David Harrison-
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Striped Anery Corn "V" or "5".....Has two names
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 Ball Python "Rocky Ballboa" (Didn't name her!)
0.0.1 Crested Gecko "The Crested Gecko"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

What would you call her, then? I've sort of thought myself that she didn't look quite Okeetee, but that's what she was sold to me as and I don't know enough about morph definitions to decide myself... I'd be really curious how you'd classify her.
thanks!

--Jaime
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2.1 Normal Ball Pythons ('04-Captain Jack; '05-BoBo; '06-Queen Latifa)
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake ('06-Little Prince [named before she was sexed])
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Blondie)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Ho0dz)

Your snake could very well have hatched from an Okeetee clutch, but given the normal variation in clutches, LP turned out to have less black than some others.
Most clutches will produce a baby or two that are called keepers since they are extraordinary as hatchlings.
Within a morph, it's not easy to pick a keeper.
All this said, the point is that being from a clutch from outstanding parents (or more likely ONE outstanding parent) doesn't guarantee babies that look like them, but sellers will often call them just exactly that.
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V.P.
Austin Herp. Soc.

>>BUT...... if both parents are good looking okeetees then the "normal" babies may be okees as well. BTW was that female the "okeetee" you were refering to? I personally would not call that an okeetee unless she is from the hunt club region.
>>-----
>>-David Harrison-
>>.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
>>1. Striped Anery Corn "V" or "5".....Has two names
>>1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
>>.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
>>.1 Ball Python "Rocky Ballboa" (Didn't name her!)
>>0.0.1 Crested Gecko "The Crested Gecko"
>>
>>"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

No not really...A reverse okeetee isn't really anything other then a selctively bred amel.
It really won't help the normals look any more like an okeetee.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

You don't think both parents having thick borders would increase the odds of the babies having thick borders? The ground color may be "off" a bit but I would think they would at least have some nice borders.....
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-David Harrison-
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Striped Anery Corn "V" or "5".....Has two names
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 Ball Python "Rocky Ballboa" (Didn't name her!)
0.0.1 Crested Gecko "The Crested Gecko"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

That doesn't look Okeetee to me.
Here is my yearling Okeetee -

Looks better after a shed

Here is my little brothers yearling Okeetee -

-=-

An Okeetee X Reverse Okeetee should in my mind produce Okeetee offspring - if it doesn't, they are low quality Okeetee to begin with (barely Okeetee) or the reverse okeetee is not really an amel okeetee, and shouldn't be called a reverse okeetee.
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x.y L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
x.y L. getula nigrita (MBK)
x.y L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
x.y Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus (W Hognose)
x.y.z Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

>>That doesn't look Okeetee to me.
>>Here is my yearling Okeetee -
>>
>>
>>
>>Looks better after a shed
>>
>>Here is my little brothers yearling Okeetee -
>>
>>
>>
>>-=-
>>
what would you call these

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

My snake very closely resembles the last photo of yours... how do YOU classify it? I don't know overly much about what defines morphs...
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2.1 Normal Ball Pythons ('04-Captain Jack; '05-BoBo; '06-Queen Latifa)
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake ('06-Little Prince [named before she was sexed])
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Blondie)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Ho0dz)

Well, that depends on what you define an okeetee as..... Which is the problem with having one name for such a broad spectrum. If you define an okeetee as only snakes collected from the hunt club then those are most likely "normals." If you define okeetee as having broad black borders then the first two would be. There are some people who only define okeetees as bright red saddles with extremely thick black borders and a dark orange/red ground color. Just depends on your definition Jimmy. btw PERSONALLY I would say that last pic is one of your cinnys. But since we are on an okeetee thread, is it a hunt club animal?
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-David Harrison-
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Striped Anery Corn "V" or "5".....Has two names
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 Ball Python "Rocky Ballboa" (Didn't name her!)
0.0.1 Crested Gecko "The Crested Gecko"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

The top two I would consider to be Okeetee.

The definition I like is the one in the Kathy Love book -

"deep red dorsal blotches ringed by well defined, jet black borders. The ground color ranges from russet to bright orange and is contrasted clearly and cleanly by the distinctive black ..."

I do not consider Okeetee to be a locality, but a pattern phase named after a locality where it occurs (it occurs at other localities as well). Okeetee Hunt Club locality may or may not be Okeetee phase. Some are not.

The definition of Okeetee amongst some has been stretched because of the market value of the name - kind of like what has happened with brooksi.

A reverse okeetee would be an okeetee by that definition were it not for the amel gene. There is a gorgeous picture of one on the front of Kathy's book. Deep red saddles, distinct white borders, bright orange background.

Of course - opinions on what makes an Okeetee varies.
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x.y L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
x.y L. getula nigrita (MBK)
x.y L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
x.y Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus (W Hognose)
x.y.z Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

I was under the impression that the thick black borders were more a definition of the Abbott's Okeetee... which look much different as young snakes. Granted, I got my snake as a yearling and didn't see what she looked like as a hatchling, but I think it's safe to say that she didn't look anything like most of the Abbott's hatchlings I've seen.
Is there a definite difference between the Abbott's Okeetee line and what was seen in the first locality Okeetee corns? I guess I've just always understood that the Okeetee's didn't originally have the super thick borders until they were selectively bred for them...
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2.1 Normal Ball Pythons ('04-Captain Jack; '05-BoBo; '06-Queen Latifa)
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake ('06-Little Prince [named before she was sexed])
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Blondie)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Ho0dz)

Well defined black borders and thick are different.
The first Okeetee I posted (mine) is an Abbott's and it has thick black borders.
The second Okeetee I posted (my little brothers) is a generic Okeetee and it has well defined black borders but they are not thick.

I don't have progression shots of my yearling '06 Abbotts - I bought him in March when his adult phenotype had already come in. I do have an '07 Abbotts -

August 15, 2007 (arrived on 8/13 from Bayou Reptiles)

August 31, 2007

September 21, 2007 (right after first shed in my possession)

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x.y L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
x.y L. getula nigrita (MBK)
x.y L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
x.y Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus (W Hognose)
x.y.z Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

>>The top two I would consider to be Okeetee.
>>
>>The definition I like is the one in the Kathy Love book -
>>
>>"deep red dorsal blotches ringed by well defined, jet black borders. The ground color ranges from russet to bright orange and is contrasted clearly and cleanly by the distinctive black ..."
>>
>>I do not consider Okeetee to be a locality, but a pattern phase named after a locality where it occurs (it occurs at other localities as well). Okeetee Hunt Club locality may or may not be Okeetee phase. Some are not.
>>
>>The definition of Okeetee amongst some has been stretched because of the market value of the name - kind of like what has happened with brooksi.
>>
>>A reverse okeetee would be an okeetee by that definition were it not for the amel gene. There is a gorgeous picture of one on the front of Kathy's book. Deep red saddles, distinct white borders, bright orange background.
>>
>>Of course - opinions on what makes an Okeetee varies.

The reason I asked the question is due to the unfortunate fact that there are still two schools of thought making it almost impossible to say if a snake is an okeetee, or not, just by looking.
Some people still define any normal with lineage traceble to the "Hunt Club" as okeetees and others don't care where they come from as long as they meet the visual criteria as you described.
I'm a little of both. Mainly due to the simple fact that there are still two schools of thought.
I would really like to see the locality and visual separated.
Keep the okeetee name for the okeetee phase and use Jasper county or hunt club to describe the locale specific lines.
The only problem with calling any corns from that area, locale specific, is there were several people in the early years of corn breeding who let their unwanted hatchlings go in there.
Have they adapted and produced, yes. Is their lineage truly hunt club? some yes, some no.
I know that the belief that there is a wild line of zig zag okeetees from the Jasper county area is not really true. John Albreight (spelling? sorry John) released the originals in the area.
Of course even the staunch locale only people can't decide on the true borders.
Some say only the hunt club. Some say Jasper County.
I say how do you know?
Let's just say the borders of the hunt club constitute the "true" okeetee zone.
What if a pair of corn snakes produce young 10 miles away from the "zone" and the survivng hatchlings spread out, as they do and one of these happens to meet up with another corn and they produce young. What if one of these young ventures out and happens to cross into the hunt club and two days later a lucky herper finds this snake? Guess what? This snake is no more a "Hunt Club" snake then the one I might have caught in Alabama but it is labled and Okeetee. "I have witnesses, I caught that snake in the "zone" it is an Okeetee." WRONG!!
Now 15 years ago a pair or corns that were both born on "Hunt Club" property mate and produce off spring. One of those offspring meets up with another snake that was born in the "zone" and they breed. A couple of their hatchlings remain in the zone, meet up with others from the zone and produce more young. Now you have several generations of "Hunt Club" corn snakes and one of these crosses the "Hunt Club" border and a couple of days, or a even couple of weeks later is caught several miles outside the "zone". Guess what? This snake that is more deserving of the name Okeetee is all of a sudden just a "normal" that was caught nearby.
How screwed up is that?

Ok, all that said...you did a pretty good job..
The top to are from Love line okeetees and the bottom one is a "just" a nice natural.
I need to go back to using natural.
I never have liked the term "normal" to describe wild type corns. Nothing normal about them!!!

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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

I guess the difference is more clear to me now... your snake is base colored orange with red saddles, whereas mine is more yellow as a base and orange saddles. At first I thought that it was just that the black around her saddles wasn't very well defined....
Which leads me to a new question: Is my snake just a wild-type normal? I like her just the same any way because she's as sweet as can be, but it would be nice to know not to trust the person I got her from as correctly defining his morphs, at least to someone who was just starting out with snakes (I guess I still pretty much am still starting out)...
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2.1 Normal Ball Pythons ('04-Captain Jack; '05-BoBo; '06-Queen Latifa)
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake ('06-Little Prince [named before she was sexed])
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Blondie)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Ho0dz)

Still up for debate Personally I would not call that an okeetee. What typically defines an okeetee is the black borders (thickness) but everyone has their own opinion.... Call her an okeetee if you like, the breeder had no reservations about calling it that
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-David Harrison-
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Striped Anery Corn "V" or "5".....Has two names
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 Ball Python "Rocky Ballboa" (Didn't name her!)
0.0.1 Crested Gecko "The Crested Gecko"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

Many people tend to over-use the term "Okeetee" corn for describing classic "normal" wild-type looking animals.

In my opinion, the term really should be reserved for animals with extreme red/orange background coloration, and deep rich red colored blotches(saddles),with exceptional examples tending to have fairly thick,to very thick well defined dark black borders surrounding the blotches. "drabar"(Jimmy) has some fabulous examples of these. If those aren't great examples, surely nothing else on the planet does!LOL

Also, the term "Okeetee" originated from a hunting club in Jasper, South Carolina, and is renowned for the exceptionally rich colored cornsnakes that it has on, and around the 50,000 acre area of the club.

In any case, you have a great looking cornsnake that would probably be best described as a "buckskin" rather than an "Okeetee". They don't necessarily HAVE to come from the Jasper County area to be termed "Okeetee", as long as they truely look the part, and even then, some would argue that a term like "Okeetee Type", or "classic" corn be used, and reserve the name for animals that have lineage from the Jasper County area.

Here is a pic of what I would call an "Okeetee" type corn, or an exceptional looking "classic" corn.

Hope this helped some.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I agree. There's a difference between the Okeetee "phase" and Okeetee "locality" (though some snakes can be both). I see a lot of snakes advertised as "Okeetee" that are neither. I think "reverse Okeetee" is over-used as well, there's too many average looking amels being termed "reverse Okeetees."

That snake in the original post looks like a normal corn to me. If it's anything, it might be a hypo - but it's definately not and Okeetee phase corn and without locality data, it wouldn't be right to call it a Okeetee locality corn either.

Tim

Third Eye

n/p
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Here is an RO bought from SMR

I'm very interested in how she turns out as an adult.
She belongs to my little brother and will eventually be bred to his normal Okeetee. It will also be interesting to see what the offspring look like.

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x.y L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
x.y L. getula nigrita (MBK)
x.y L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
x.y Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus (W Hognose)
x.y.z Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

I just want to throw in there that I think my snake very closely resembles the on in your picture, and probably will even more so as she grows. She's getting brighter ever shed, a saddle or so changes colors each time... I know that it's a very opinion-oriented thing, but I wish I knew how to classify my little girl...
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2.1 Normal Ball Pythons ('04-Captain Jack; '05-BoBo; '06-Queen Latifa)
0.1 Okeetee Corn Snake ('06-Little Prince [named before she was sexed])
1.0 Bearded Dragon (Blondie)
1.0 Hooded Rat (Ho0dz)

Okeetee or not, your corn is a very beautiful corn.
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x.y L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
x.y L. getula nigrita (MBK)
x.y L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
x.y Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus (W Hognose)
x.y.z Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

>>Many people tend to over-use the term "Okeetee" corn for describing classic "normal" wild-type looking animals.
>>
>> In my opinion, the term really should be reserved for animals with extreme red/orange background coloration, and deep rich red colored blotches(saddles),with exceptional examples tending to have fairly thick,to very thick well defined dark black borders surrounding the blotches. "drabar"(Jimmy) has some fabulous examples of these. If those aren't great examples, surely nothing else on the planet does!LOL
>>
>> Also, the term "Okeetee" originated from a hunting club in Jasper, South Carolina, and is renowned for the exceptionally rich colored cornsnakes that it has on, and around the 50,000 acre area of the club.
>>
>> In any case, you have a great looking cornsnake that would probably be best described as a "buckskin" rather than an "Okeetee". They don't necessarily HAVE to come from the Jasper County area to be termed "Okeetee", as long as they truely look the part, and even then, some would argue that a term like "Okeetee Type", or "classic" corn be used, and reserve the name for animals that have lineage from the Jasper County area.
>>
>>
>> Here is a pic of what I would call an "Okeetee" type corn, or an exceptional looking "classic" corn.
>>
>>

Man, I always like seeing that picture. That is a beautiful snake.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

_____

Those "Okeetee" corns you posted were, in my opinion, some of the very best around!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

If I was trying to sell your snake I would not call it an "Okeetee" as it doesn't fit what most people think an "Okeetee" is suppose to look like. Since I really like the way it looks I would probably sell it as a very good looking normal. Earlier this year I sold an Abbott strain Okeetee (came from good stock, etc., etc.) that just did not measure up. If you had seen it you would have said no way is that an Abbott Okeetee. It was still a beautiful specimen. I had a choice of selling it as an Abbott and then arguing about whether or not it was one, selling it as an excellent normal, or selling it as an inferior Abbott that just didn't make it. That is the problem with common names. Personally I don't care what they are called when I like the color, pattern, etc. But I feel I must be honest as I sell an individual. Bottom line--whatever you call your corn I think it looks good. Would I breed it to an "acceptable" "Okeetee" or not???? Who knows!!! That's my $.02.

Pat

First off beautiful snake! I love the saddle color on it.
If I were you I would breed it to another snake that looks like that with bolder gold and yellow.If you are into the Natural look then you should get some exceptional snakes out of that. I believe that just breeding it to the Reverse okeetee will help that out a little bit. It can definately produce some babies with a great natural color like his! Best of Luck!
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~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As I turned around I smelled a
horrible "dirty body" smell, and there standing behind me were two poor homeless men. As I looked down at the short gentleman, close to me, he was "smiling". His beautiful sky blue eyes were full of God's Light as he searched for acceptance. He said, "Good day" as he counted the few coins he had been clutching. The young lady at the counter asked him what they wanted. He said, "Coffee is all Miss" because that was all they could afford. (If they wanted to sit in the restaurant and warm up, they had to buy something. He just wanted to be warm).

~Ty