Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hypo and PB

After observing these two mutations it is my theory that the Hypo brooks we have come to know is actually a Xanthic (increased yellow pigmentation) mutation rather than a hypomelanistic mutation and the true hypo is the "Peanut butter"

In the hypomelanistic Floridana black pigment is still black, there is no reduction in pigmentation of the eyes either...it is also my belief that this mutation isn't as simple as we may assume. i think there are two completely different hypo genes that are compatible (similar to what occurs when PB and T negative amel are bred)

In the PB mutation, the black pigment IS reduced and there is a reduction in the pigmentation of the eyes. the PB's have an overall coffee brown coloration, and the darker scales are lavender-brown (lavender in males brown in females)

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

" i think there are two completely different hypo genes that are compatible (similar to what occurs when PB and T negative amel are bred)

Zenny,

I bred the Peanut Butter to a hypo about 6 years ago. They are NOT compatiple.

There is also some freaky stuff going on with the PB pigment. I had some PB's come out almost solid red and 2 I had came out very light gray. That PB gene is a tuff nut to crack.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

I didn't say PB and HYPO are compatible

I said there may be 2 HYPO genes that when bred together a similar result occurs like when PB is bred to T negative...

~Z
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Royal ReptileZ

okay I see what you mean. I read it wrong.

As far as the hypos they were popping up all over the place. Originally The Loves and Doug Beard had two lines. Then Krysco had his red hypos but other had them as well. I beleive they are all different phenotypes just like the Lemke and New England axanthic. The NE line is allelic with the Lemke just that the NE has better lines from the original phenotypes. Not a different shared allele.

There is nothing to lead me to beleive they are different lines that share a single locus on an allele like the PB and T negative. I think the Peanut Butter is unique to the snake world genetics. While the hypos are all the same just with diifferent range of appearances from one end of the spectrum (high yellow to dark). Another thing is the hypos share a common trait and that is the visual form is abberant while the normals (hets) are not. This is typical of the hypo gene as it effects pattern as well as color. In some other reccessive traits (like the axanthics) this is not the case. The axanthics keep the classic high band crossbar count just like the normals. With the hypos the visials are all distirted with lines, stripes, no crossbars ect. And the normal het hypos are not that way. They are more the classic floridana pattern. If there were different strains of hypo this would be one way to tell the difference. In all the hypos are probably all different "lines" and not "strains".

Zenny have you see the bone white hypos?

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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Very cool looking hypos!

Can't wait to see them within a year!

as far as the hypos, i would agree that they could just be varied just like normal/non-morphs are varied... BUT i see distinct difference in certian hypos...

~Z
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Royal ReptileZ

Have you tried breeding the PB trait to the WS trait yet? After seeing Zenny's WS axanthic with red pupils, and knowing the PBs have the same type of red pupils, could they be related in some way? May be a stretch seeing how most WS I've seen still show darker pigmentation compared to what's seen on the PBs. But.......?
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Ace

I love this post! I also believe the hypo is the mysery thing in that it covers every degree of a hypomelanistic condition. The mahogany color of Florida kings, the brown and the black seem to be things that can be non-allelic(?) affected by hypomelanism. The red ones are "black" hypo, the yellow are "brown" hypo and the white are the "red" hypo, or some sort of thing like that. I am unqualified to attempt to sort it out, but man you are on to something there! I hope this gets more discussion than some dark king from 1977!

If you've bred a snake with the capability to stand up, I want to see it!
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x.y L. getula californiae (Cal. King)
x.y L. getula nigrita (MBK)
x.y L. getula floridana (Brooksi)
x.y Pantherophis guttatus guttatus (Corn)
0.1 Pituophis catenifer catenifer (Pacific gopher)
0.1 Heterodon nasicus (W Hognose)
x.y.z Elgaria multicarinata multicarinata - (Cal. Alligator Lizard)

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

You could be right about the hypo brooks but just to offer an alternate theory for the sake of discussion. It could be that there is yellow and sometimes red beneath the black and the hypo condition makes visible what was already there. Like with the amel ruthveni and nelsoni where on some of them the yellow was revealed underneath the black bands when we normally would have thought it would be white.

yep! you are very correct! they could just be displaying what is masked by the black pigment! i mean Floridana are soooooooooooooooooooo variable it wouldn't surprise me.

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

Zenny, in most snake species I have seen the term hypomelanistic applied, there are at least two "phases" of the trait. Well, I think more like (at least)two different looks described as hypo anyway..
For instance in corns (and others) there is the look where there is black but the amount of it is reduced.. then there is the look where the black is muted if you will and has been softened or lightened to appear as brown,gray,silver, and various other visual differences (see hondurans).
Like you, I think the term hypomelanistic as it is being used now, covers too much ground, is not specific enough, and can be confusing.
Please come up with some better terms for us.
I'm too lazy. (and keep the food terms out too...the subliminal forces they have on me are not fair..hell, I have a pb&j sammich right now!)
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

well i don't think it'd catch on even if we were to come up with a way to differentiate the two...

my other theory is that there may be Hypomelanism AND Xanthism... they are physically different be genetically compatible...

I've seen really DARK hypos and i've seen really light ones (hatchlings)... who knows???

~Z
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Royal ReptileZ

........someone else took notice.

Ever since Rainer produced the PB's I've thought the same thing.
The PB's are actually descriptive of the term HYPOMELANISTIC rather then what's been around for so long.

Even when bred to Axanthic to produce Ghosts, there is no change in the actual pigment coloration.

NOW, the Phantom that Rainer produced, to me, would be more on the lines of an ACTUAL Ghost, by discription.

Walter