Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Can someone answer a question for me. Who was it that decided that Bug Eyed snakes are bad? They eat well,act like a rat snake, poop like rat snakes and make good pets. When I take some to a show, people marvel at how unique they look and have actually chosen them over a "tight eyed" snake. If I destoyed every snake in my collection that showed a genetic anomaly I would save a lot of money in mice but my collection would be quite boring. Mind you I don't go out of my way to produce bug eyes but they show up.

Scott Sweeney
Sweeney's Serpents

I believe this is because the bug-eyed trait is considered a genetic defect. The argument could be made that color morphs could fall under the "defect" category as well, but something just seems worse about the bug-eyes (like kinks or missing eyes, etc.). Of course there will be those who find the bug-eyed trait endearing. I'm not one of them.

I don't truly understand the whole "genetic defect" arguement. There are species of snakes that are just bug-eyed. Boiga for example, most of them are bug-eyed, because they are nocturnal. Would you expect genetics to make a grinding halt from evolving, just to satisfy preferred visual characteristics? If that's the case, then someone needs to start cloning animals that already have those traits. It's genetic diversity that keeps things interesting.

Not sure the Boiga example is applicable, as it is a species characteristic (the way bug-eyes are characteristic of Namibian house snakes).

If these bug-eyes were evolving for the benefit of the rat snakes, I'm sure all--or at least one?!--of the wild caughts would be in possession of them. I recognize there is [at least sometimes] a difference between what a hobbyist strives for versus nature. I'm not at all expecting "genetics to make a grinding halt from evolving"--but I don't think a case can be made that Texas rats are trying to evolve bug-eyes. The wild caught ones (the examples I've seen, at least) are failing miserably at that goal.
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"I don't truly understand the whole "genetic defect" arguement. There are species of snakes that are just bug-eyed. Boiga for example, most of them are bug-eyed, because they are nocturnal. Would you expect genetics to make a grinding halt from evolving, just to satisfy preferred visual characteristics? If that's the case, then someone needs to start cloning animals that already have those traits. It's genetic diversity that keeps things interesting."

I appreciate everyones opinion. We all breed defective snakes. Most of the animals that I produced would die within the first week if they were let go place of origin...(mainly becoming lunch from the lack of ability to camoflage). I just get a laugh out of people that advertise that their Leucistic Tx Rats don't carry that horrible gene. Wow, I want the lab they are using to know to a certainty that lurking within their snakes DNA there is not an allel just looking for a match to produce the BUG EYES. I people watch, I think to some extent we all do and I can't tell you how many times I would see a human with a unique combination of traits that would make me think " I hope that doesn't reproduce"...I feel that way about the current president.....However, I'm not god.

Sorry for the rant. I have been cleaning and feeding snakes all day and I smell like the back end of a snake...........

Scott Sweeney
sweeney's Serpents

True, but if that's the case, then the issue is breeding. To have a recessive trait such as that, the inbreeding of lines to keep up with public demand must be astounding. All it takes to avoid it, is a few females & 2-3 males per female. 1-on-1 breeding to ensure diversity. Each female can have a clutch with each male. Then cross clutches with different parents. The other possible issue is incubation temps. I've seen/heard of snakes having all sorts of issues, when the temps vary more than 2*f. Including being hatched without eyes.

Yes,....

This problem was no doubt caused from all of the inbreeding recession. And yes, could easily be taken care of with some "new blood" introduced from some wild-type "normals" being introduced.

As a matter of fact,...I will probably do this with my line to replentish some genetic stability.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Well,...most people like some diversity, and some like aberrations,........ as well as some surprises too. Some people like gruesome, morbid anomolies as well....some examples would be,.....one-eyed snakes, snakes with no eyes, two-headed, etc....
and sure, a certain percentage might think that "bug-eyed" snakes are cool as well.

But I think if a poll was taken by ALL herpetoculturists asking the question...."do you prefer bug-eyed snakes, or non bug-eyed snakes", I think the vast majority would put their "checkmark" on the NON bug-eyed box.

"Subocs", and some others, naturally have larger eyes in their wild form, so this should be excluded.

I'm not knocking the animals that DO have bug-eyes, but I certainly WOULD NOT be propogating that defective trait on purpose!...that's for certain!

In any case, no animosity is meant by this at all, I just don't think MOST people think that this is desirable, attractive trait defect.

Also, the ONLY reason I recently purchased some leucistic Texas Rats this year, is because they did NOT have "bug-eyes".

That certainly doesn't mean that when I breed them when they are adults, that they won't/can't produce some bug-eyed babies, because this is a defect that goes hand-in-hand with the Texas leucistics......it is exhibited from time to time. But I will certainly not strive to make more.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Doug

Using your standard for what a valid defect should be, there would be fewer people on this planet. I am still waiting for the person who posts that they froze their two headed snake because it was defective. I don't go out of my way to produce Bug Eyes but it happens and it seems that I never have any left at the end of the year.

No animosity intended.

Scott Sweeney
Sweeney's serpents

If I ever produce a bug eyed snake I will put it in the freezer, just like I do with all other deformed hatchlings. I'm a bit of a darwinist I guess. But hey, each his own.

Herman,

Your not a Darwinist. In fact you are playing god. In nature there are evolutionary dead end. However, in a captive situation the Bug Eyes won't have the opportunity to die off naturally ( because of their horrible defect ) hence ending their miserable existence being ridiculed by someone like you.......unless you stop feeding them....or throw them in the freezer.

By the way C. Darwin did not go island hopping saying hey you, ya you the big turtle, I will kill you because you are not like the turtles on the last island I was at. It sound like something a herman would do.

Scott Sweeney

dead ends.........sounds. I really should proof read a little better but I was having to much fun.

Scott Sweeney

Oké, so if I ever find an island population of bug eyed leucistisc ratsnakes, I will let them be. Yust for you. I promiss.

Herman,

If I find an Island of Hermans I won't kill them either.

Scott

If there really were an island of Hermans, it propabely would be designated as part of the 'Axis Of Evil' and preventively nuked by your beloved president, LOL.