Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I've been using repti-sun 10.0 for my snakes, (Argentine, Guyana's) and was wondering if they really need a UVB light? I also have a Ball python and Durmils and was thinking about getting the a UVB light as well. Should I use another type of light for them or should I stay with the Repti-Sun 10.0.
I was thinking about using Repti-Sun 2.0 which they say has a hig color rendering index for better viewing. Any suggestion on what you anyone is using or what I should use.
Thanks
Alex

boas don't need uv lighting. i'm pretty sure the same goes for ball pythons and dumerils, but i'm not going to say for sure since i don't work with them. it's usually diurnal animals that need it.

Out of interest what are you basing your reply on?
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Thank you for posting this insightful well spoken bit of information. These opposing view points help us all question what we've heard is true and we usually learn something as a result. I've always assumed that they didn't need UVB or natural lighting , but your making me rethink that issue. Ok, my brain hurts and I need to rest my head now.

between NECESSARY and BENEFICIAL.

NECESSARY implies that UV is critical to the life of the snake. I've seen 20 year old captive snakes that have not been kept with UV lighting. If it was necessary then they obviously would not have lived 20 years.

Can it be BENEFICIAL? Maybe. But I haven't seen any proof.

Now back to the original question asked. Is it NECESSARY? Obviously not and that's the only question I addressed. Can it be BENEFICIAL? Maybe, but that is not what was asked.

Instead of asking people if they have ever seen wild boids or boids exposed to UV, why don't you explain to us the differences an expert like you have noticed. I'm clearly not an expert on the subject matter, but I can still say from my experience and other's that UV is not NECESSARY.

Now come clean. You're a sales rep for zoo-med right? lol.

:slap:

>>between NECESSARY and BENEFICIAL.
>>Now come clean. You're a sales rep for zoo-med right? lol.

:giggles:
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TnK

Boa's dont need it.
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TnK

Again, what are you basing this on?

I would hazard a guess that you have never seen a wild Boid? What about a wild Boa constrictor? If the answer to any of those two questions is yes I think your previous response would have been very different.

Whilst the traditional answer might well have been "no, boas don't need UV" I think many people who have used UV on their snakes / given their animals to unfiltered sunshine would argue differently.

I currently have a research project running studying this very subject. Initial findings made by an MSc student (on behaviour) are incredibly interesting. Long term studies on blood D3 levels will enlighten us even more.

For the time being, let's just say that we just don't know enough to make definitive statements like yours. Whilst an animal may grow and breed without UV, this doesn't mean to say that given access to such wavelengths that that particular animal wouldn't live longer, breed better, have higher fecundity etc etc.
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I personally don't use UVB for my snakes. Some natural light comes in through the windows during about 1/4 of the day but all my cages also have an area of shade the snake can use.

Check out the link below from a UK forum about UVB and research ongoing about it possibly causing cataracts... (are you part of this research group?) It's very interesting.

I would tend to think it could be bad since snakes don't have eyelids as lizards do, they can't close their eyes to avoid a UVB tube, just move into a hide or other cover.

Just some more ongoing research and a good read.
UVB causing blindness

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'There is a very fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness."' -Rainshadow

I wasn't going to comment further but as you have at least taken the trouble to be a bit more constructive I will!

That particular page highlights something which I briefly mentioned in my last post, "bright bulbs." What we are now learning about the higher output tubes is that although there is actually nothing wrong with their UVB output per se, problems CAN stem from the light frequency actually keeping the pupils open because the animals aren't in effect registering this as a bright light. I know this doesn't make much sense, but when used in conjunction with say a regular household flourescent, the light frequencies in those tubes DO cause the pupils to close. Hence, the animals can come out to bask in a 'natural' manner but their pupils respond and don't stay wider open (and hence eliminating / vastly reducing cataract risk).

Although UV lamps have been around for some time people have to realise that the science behind them is still relatively new. We are learning. And people have to open their minds a little sometimes!
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Here's a reseach on UVBs vs Snakes...
http://www.wyzza.ca/uv_serpents.pdf

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Sylvain Ouellette
Montreal,Canada

Hi,

I have a couple questions on your study if you don't mind taking the time to answer. How many boas are you doing this study on? How many breedings are you going to use to conclude your findings on? One last question. What is your study team's experience with the captive care and reproduction of boa constrictors. Thank you.

If boas and pythons needed UVB the way that diurnal lizards, turtles, and tortoises did, then there would be a lot of people in this forum with sick, deformed, malnourished snakes. Diurnal reptiles need UVB to produce Vitamin D3 and thus absorb calcium into their bones. Snakes however (along with most geckos) have evolved to survive without UVB. I read a few years ago that snakes were found to have scales that were too thick to absorb most UVB rays --in other words, they have their own built-in sun block.

If anything, UVB can be dangerous to albino snakes because they have no melanin in their eyes to protect them from the ultraviolet radiation, causing them to go blind. Especially something as high as 10.0 UVB which is ONLY for use in desert animals.

Regardless of how much UVB a snake can actually absorb through it's scales, I've never heard of any major boa/python breeders using UVB on their snakes (constrictors unlimited, bob clark, pete kahl, etc) and their snakes seem to be doing just fine.

~kasey

...with all due resepct.

OK, this is the last I say on the matter because there are clearly way too many experts here that have done the research and know more than everyone else:

If boas and pythons needed UVB the way that diurnal lizards, turtles, and tortoises did, then there would be a lot of people in this forum with sick, deformed, malnourished snakes. Diurnal reptiles need UVB to produce Vitamin D3 and thus absorb calcium into their bones. Snakes however (along with most geckos) have evolved to survive without UVB. I read a few years ago that snakes were found to have scales that were too thick to absorb most UVB rays --in other words, they have their own built-in sun block.

- Do you own a Solarmeter? If you do, or have access to one, take shed skin samples from different species and measure UVB penetration.

If anything, UVB can be dangerous to albino snakes because they have no melanin in their eyes to protect them from the ultraviolet radiation, causing them to go blind. Especially something as high as 10.0 UVB which is ONLY for use in desert animals.

- Why are 10.0 ONLY for desert animals? What do you understand about UV lamps? I will refer you to the following website for some help: http://www.uvguide.co.uk/ And before you refer me to the "warning" about 5.0 and 10.0 tubes I should tell you that we now understand a little more about what was going wrong with such tubes (i.e. keeping animals eyes open) and how to counter this.

Here is an exerpt from that website:

"More research is needed as to the relationship between UV light and vitamin D3 metabolism in the snake. Traditionally, nocturnal and crepuscular snakes are not thought to require UV light. However, there would not seem to be any reason why they should not be able to utilise it for vitamin D3 synthesis. Is there any difference in transmission of UV between the skin of nocturnal and diurnal species of snake?

Snakes such as the forest-dwelling kingsnakes, which live in shaded habitats and are often active at night, might be expected to have skin which allows a high degree of UVB penetration; and indeed, this does seem to be the case; the skin from several species transmitted 45% or more of the UVB.

However, the inverse relationship between skin permeability and the amount of sun to which the reptile exposes itself does not seem as straightforward in snakes as it does in lizards.

Garter snakes (Thamnophis sirtalis), for example, are diurnal and often seen basking in morning sun, in a wide range of habitats across Canada and the USA from Alaska to Texas. Surprisingly, skin from the back of the snake would appear to transmit a similar proportion of UV light as that of the back of a leopard gecko. The skin on the belly was even more translucent, allowing 56% of the UVB through.

The skin of boas and pythons (with normal pigmentation) is much more protective. The skin of the Argentine Boas (Boa constrictor occidentalis), for example, permitted only 18% transmission [although note that Yemen's chameleon skin only transmits 22%!]. This is a nocturnal snake of the forest, grassland and scrub of Paraguay and Argentina; one might have expected a more "transparent" skin. It is tempting to speculate that these snakes, although active at night, do not hide away during daylight but rather, rest in well-lit tree branches where they are exposed to significant amounts of scattered UV light, if not direct sunlight."

Regardless of how much UVB a snake can actually absorb through it's scales, I've never heard of any major boa/python breeders using UVB on their snakes (constrictors unlimited, bob clark, pete kahl, etc) and their snakes seem to be doing just fine.

- With all due respect boid husbandry is still a relatively new science. The breeders you mention may not use UV, but like I said in my previous post, this DOES NOT mean that UVB isn't beneficial to snake physiology / behaviour. We just don't know enough. Have you ever conducted any research to back up your statements? Have you ever heard of the 25-hydroxy vitamin D test? Have you ever used UV lamps on boids? And like I said in my other post, have YOU ever seen a wild boid? We are quick to label boids as "nocturnal" and yet that often couldn't be farther from the truth. I have worked for 5 years in the Colombian Amazon and 2 years in the Caribbean, and I've seen ALOT of wild boids over the years.

I think you would be surprised about the number of boid keepers that DO use UV on their animals. Diamond python breeders have used it for years, as have many Sanzinia keepers. I personally wouldn't keep my Boelen's or Diamond's without some access to UV.

I am certain that one day, the research will back up what I am trying to get at here, and that is that UVB IS beneficial to (certainly some including Boa spp., Epicrates spp., Python spp., Liasis spp., Morelia spp.) boids. Until such research is available (and it may take many years) people have to realise that you simply cannot make the sort of definitive statements that you make in your post!
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Regardless of Scientific data and or possible proof,this will not affect the majority of established keepers. Longterm supportive data is still years down the road.As with anything "New" the potential for recall exist.
Plenty of 20 plus year old animals thriving today with no supplemental lighting intended for "Health"

Snake Sausages comes to mind for some reason?.....

Good Luck with it.
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TnK

I am highly interested in this topic of UVB lighting in regards to boas, pythons, colubrids, etc. ALL snakes as well as how that relates to using it for lizards.

I'm glad you posted the uvguide website...LOADS of awesome research there and continuing to grow. I'm very interested in your research that you are conducting as well.
Please do email me as I'd love to pick your brain on how you're conducting this and what results you are finding, etc. I just find it all very intriguing and what to see how this progresses as far as research.

Hugs!

Amanda Rose

I don't know if I believe that UV rays can't penetrate a boas scales. I've notices you can see light coming clewan through babies. Seriously, take a baby ghost and backlight it! I'd sure like to see the study that shows this.
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Caden Chapman
slithering.serpents@gmail.com
http://slitheringserpents.com

pregnant boas?

I have read in a number of places that pregnant boas benefit
from UVB lights.

>>I have read in a number of places that pregnant boas benefit
>>from UVB lights.
>>

Snakes, from what I understand do not synthesize through UV absorption like lizards and other herps. They have evolved to do with out it. So I don't know how it could benefit them. ??

I can say that in 30 years of keeping Boa, I have never offered any source of UV light. Even when i used lights back in the day for spot heat. Never had one get sick from it either.
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Richard Carew
Sunset BCI
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