Thankyou everyone for responding to my post and sending the awesome pics!! Those are Hot looking N Pines!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have to agree that a N pine does not have to be high b/w to look really beautiful. I do like and appreciate the browns tans and reds and a normal natural phase pines. I like them better that some of the color morphs out their. I just couldnt hold back all of my babies so I wanted to figure out which ones I should hold back. and thats going to be difficult its funny how hatchling can change color into adult hood. I had the blood reddist CB eastern Hognose( in my opinion) which after its second year it turned into a dark solid grey/black with no hint of red. It was still a great looking snake but didnt keep its red like i expected,lol. speaking of N pines that are red. is anyone working with them right now? I spoke to an old time herper guy from long island, ny who told me (supposedly, seems pretty honest and reputable though)that he was the original guy who hatched red n pines from a wc normal N pine gravid female from NJ i think back inthe 70/80s however sold off his stock. supposedly the offspring came out normal beige, some red and one with a straw yellowish white. wow I really wrote too much!! anyway thanks again for all of the info and pics!! Its much appreciated!!! Dave