Reptile & Amphibian Forums

can you house 2 or 3 corns together? does it depend on sex, disposition of individual snakes? not just for breding either just housing in general thanks

Most people will tell you that all snakes should be housed individually and there is a lot of merit to that method (easier feeding, monitoring of health issues, lower stress levels, etc.). However, when I worked in a reptile house at a zoo we had an exhibit that housed two female cornsnakes and we had no trouble with those animals. The exhibit was fairly large (3' x 3' x 3') with plenty of climbing and pinestraw covering a gravel substrate so there was plenty of opportunity for the animals to hide from/get away from one another. We monitored feeding but did not separate the animals into different containers. In the end, it will be up to you but if you have a large enough enclosure with enough opportunities for the snakes to get away from one another and you feel comfortable with your ability to monitor health and stress levels it can be done.

Rob

hi i have been breeding corns for 8 years. i have a 2.5 ft w by 7.5 ft L by 2.5 ft h encloser. tank devided in half.females on one side males on the other.never had any problems. just got to watch when you feed them.i usually keep up to 6 on a side. they actually look like the enjoy each others company.shure beats living in a tank all alone. keeps them a bit more active.no flabbie out of shape corns here.

so a male and female wont work well together except for a short time for breeding?

well thanks

Are you wanting to house a male and female together and not have them breed? Highly doubtful. I to have housed females together in a pinch while awaiting new enclosures with no problems
Foot Hill Reptiles

no sorry, i will want them to breed i ws just wondering if you cold house them together either way

There's no good reason to house corns together, except that the keeper wants to do so for some reason (space, ease, "it's cool," or whatever). There is no reason for the corns...they are solitary animals that do not enjoy one another's company except during mating.

Reasons not to house them together:

1. Cannibalism. Though relatively rare, corns do eat each other from time to time. Usually, this is due to an SFE (stupid feeding error), but there are instances in which corns seem to prefer to eat their tank mates. Granted, I have never seen this happen except in the case of hatchlings (and almost always a problem feeder is the culprit, by the way), but I have learned never to say never among corn issues.

2. Stress. Reptiles are extremely susceptible to stress related illnesses. If you take an animal that is solitay by nature and force it to share a space with another solitary animal...yes, you may never have a problem, but why take that chance?

3. Problem identification. If you have multiple animals in a tank, and one of them is sick (i.e. regurging a few days after feeding, when both "lumps" have gone down in the two corns), how can you know which is sick? And even if you do know which it is, you have to realize that if your animal is contagious with something, you now have two sick aniamls when you could have had only one.

Someone will likely post Jimmy's excellent post on the subject, but I have to say that I can find no justifiable reason for the average keeper to be putting two or more animals in in a situation wherein the possible negatives obviously outweigh the limited positives.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

...I agree with you and my recommendation would be to house animals individually whenever possible. However, if the question is simply "can it be done" than the answer, in my opinion, is yes it can. Obviously there are certain precautions that need to be taken and you bring up all of the good reasons not to do it. I was simply pointing out that I have done it in the past and not had any trouble with the two animals in question. I apologize for any confusion.

Rob

There's no need for you, or anyone else to apologize. I am not offended in any way by what was written, but I think we have to be careful to realize that some of the most inexperienced keepers come to this page first to see what is acceptable husbandry practices. If all they see is that cohabitation works in certain instances, then they will be more likely to try it themselves wihtout all fo the experience they need to do it safely and effectively.

I agree that there are scenarios in which it is possible (maybe even 100% safely) to house corns together. I've done it too. A few years ago, I had about 180 hatchlings to feed and care for...think I had separate enclosures for them all? No way to do it in my limited space, so they had to be in separate containers of about twenty or so until they were sold off one by one.

What I said was that the "average keeper" (and "average keeper" in the minds of many on this forum may be someone who has only had his or her corn for about two weeks!) ought not try to cohabitate their animals. I stand by that firmly.

But I would never try to impose that assertion as a fast and firm "rule" to be followed in every scenario. Nor would I tell another person he or she was wrong for cohabitating corns. I just don't think it is wise in most instances.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

i agree with you that it is better to seperate your corns for certian health reasons. but people keep their corns in such small enclosers 20gal size or smaller that their corns do not get enough exercise wich leads to other problems ex egg binding. lack of muscle tone.if you ever caught a wild corn and compared its muscle tone to one that is kept in a sweater box you will then see what i mean.the wild one will look and feel like a well conditioned athlete. and the other a coach potato.and if you had ten or more corns and many of us do. it would be almost if not inpossable to keep them in large enough.i feel min 50 gal enclosers each so that they could get the right amount of exercise.you probably would not have enough room in your house to keep that many corns.so i agree that both ways have their advantages and disadvantages .

Corns can do fine in a 20-gallon or sweaterbox, without becoming overweight. The reason why captive corns get fat is due to a variety of factors:

1) Not having to escape from predators.
2) Not having to hunt for food.
3) Being fed laboratory mice raised on a complete diet.
4) Lack of internal parasites.
5) A constant, readily available supply of food.
6) A constant availability of preferred temperature.

There's far more to it than cage size. A corn can get fat in a 100-gallon enclosure for all the above reasons.

Tim

Third Eye

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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

Some very good points. Even some I never thought of. You must be a guru! lol

I missed you Thursday, got in late, wifey used my corporate accoutn CC back in August, and had no idea I was accuring $8 a day in over drafts. I guess everyone was in, that morning.

Hope to see ya Saturday. Oh yea if you do have a pic of the male corn I wanted I would appreciate a copy.

Grasshopper
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

True dat.

To add my two cents, I have noticed that when handling my corns I am very careful about keeping them safe, meaning that I only have allowed them to travel between my two hands.

Recently however, I have go so far as to let them move around the room on their own (closely supervised) and have noticed that they expend much more energy flexing their bodies while climbing around the new spaces. In the few weeks I have done this, I have noticed that my overweight yearling has increased her muscle definition (to a point where I can now see some actual definition) and my five year old has regained the impressive tone that he had when I first got him.

CSG:

You are aware of my setups: I have two 29 gallon tanks, one for each snake. That's pretty much all the room I have for snakes in the house. I also don't want them to cohabitate for all the common reasons. However, what if I were to make a plexiglas divider for each tank? I was thinking that if I were to divide each tank in half down the middle (short-ways) I would end up with two tall, 14-1/2 gallon enclosures. ( = room for two more snakes!)

Would this be enough room for all involved?

Well what you're really looking at is floor space. 14-1/2 gallons sounds nice, but since that's tall tank, there's not alot of room square-inches-wise on the floor. I like my caging to be a length about 2/3's of the snake and a width about 1/3 of the snake's length.

So if that whitesnake (no relation to David Coverdale) you have is over 3 feet, you'd be needing a tank at least two feet in length.

You could double you snake keeping potential in the space you have by using some sort of drawer/rack system. It sounds like you told that snake that got fat about a quarter pounder having 36 grams of fat.

Rock over London, Rock on Chicago, Wheaties - It's the Breakfast of Champions,

T

yes a corn could still get out of shape in a100gal tank. but the odds are that it will more than lickly get more out of shape in a small enclose because the snake can't explore as much.thus burning fewer calories. all other factors being the same ,food,temp,ext

First I will say I agree with all you said. But I've had herps from about 1972, and at one point had about 15 monitors and tegus in a single 10' x 12' room. It was common back then to mix stuff, and I sat and watched those guys interact all the time and never in 2 years was there an issue. BUT, I would never do that today.

>1. Cannibalism. I would say extremely rare in adults. Babies seem to have a bigger issue. Feed separate, and this may sound strang, but when I had a lot of small hognose, I had a space issue. I housed some together and they too as babies seem to find the smell of the pinkies on the heads of the other snakes. I placed them back in the tank together and gave a quick fine mist of water. I'm retired and bored. I'd watch these guys for hours after feeding. The water spray really made a difference in them sniffing the other snakes. But is space is not an issue, and feeding response is, I say house separate.

>>2. Stress. Reptiles are extremely susceptible to stress related illnesses.

This one is probably more species oriented. But again a flash back to the 70's, we kept a 17' retic a 12' burm a 13' suriname and a 9' African rock all together in a small cage by today's standards. Would I do this today? NO! But stress? The suri was a puppy dog, the retic was great as was the burm. NOW the rock was stressed, but they all were back then as they were all the northern sp. We had them together years. I see more stress mixing corns, if they've been housed separately. They seem to know they are the same sp, and check each other out a lot. But have also been to peoples houses that keep them together and (I guess) once they identify each other, they seem fine? I say seem, as I can not read their minds. I just wonder about this stress issue? I think there is a lot more to it than we understand. IMHO

>>3. Problem identification. Totally agree

So housing separate clearly outweighs together. I just don't have the hard feeling about it on some animals. Clearly Jackson chameleons have an issue. I housed many females with out issue. But males had to be separate. But I also know people that have raised sibling chameleons with 1.1 in a cage, and if they separated them they stopped eating? So separation was clearly a stress in that case.

Again I just don't think we understand all the dynamics in herp relations. Again this is just my opinion.
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Thanks for reading.
Big Tom

www.herpzilla.com

I'm FAR from an expert in corn snakes in general or this topic specifically, but I'd like to add my two pesos based on what I've seen.

There are some very good reasons to house individually, including preventing group infections or infestations, identifying individuals who have succumbed to illness, etc.

I'd like to add at least one.
I thought it would be cool to have multiple snakes in one tank, and did the research, as I couldn't keep my kings together long term, for fear of the one fat snake syndrome.

Keeping multiple examples together lessens the personal attention each one gets, esp. if they are all the same morph, size and are similar in their general appearance.

It took one of my corns having a retained tail shed and losing the last 1/4" of tail to black gangrene to drive home the fact that I wasn't getting enough enjoyment out of ALL of them to hold them individually. If that corn was housed individually, I certainly would have noticed his condition before he was forced to endure the hardship of gangrene. He's fine now, BTW, but that's not the point.
That won't happen again, not to my snakes.

why not.....if cage is big enough and corns are all about the same size and are fed well and can't eat each other by mistake while eating....YES you can cage them together......

.....I know a guy that put 2 or 3 females per box in his racks.....they got more exercise by being all together........he got ALOT of eggs and all his snakes looked better than mine...

......another guy had a BIG wooden cage with like 5 corns in it and they all had room and perches and hides all for themselves if they liked.....

,.........I also know another guy that doesn't feed his snakes.......hardly at all........and his one Abbott's okee was trying to eat the other one the other week.....(adult females ).....

FEED your stuff.......

!!!!!!!!!!
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.....too many critters.....
......too little time.........
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well.......

I feel it is best to keep snakes separate.
I know a lot of people can and do keep multiple snakes together without problems. I just feel the possible drawbacks need to be expressed.
When a person gets the experience and knowledge of each individual snake in his care, and wants to try co-habitation, it is up to them. They just need to be careful and observant enough to see and understand the subtle signs of stress in their snakes.
There can be definite drawbacks in co-habitation.
If one snake becomes sick there is a very good likelihood the other/others will get sick as well.
It may also take a while (usually too long) to determine which one is the sick one.
If one regurgitates its food you won't know which one unless you happen to get lucky and see it.
If one has a problem stool you won't know which one. Once again one may have a problem and by the time you figure out which one the other/others could end up with the same problem.
Although this is only a slight possibility, it is still a possibility and has been know to happen... one snake could eat the other. Cannibalism can and does occur with corn snakes. The smell of a prey item could trigger one snake to eat the other. Or simple hunger accompanied by a ready food source could do the same. Although uncommon, it has happened and is a possibility.
Another possibility is unwanted pregnancy. A female may become gravid and you may not have the knowledge, desire or ability to incubate the eggs, care for the hatchlings and find homes for them. With hatchlings comes added responsibility.
A lot of people rationalize by saying, "I will just put two males or two females together". That can work but mistakes can be made, especially with hatchlings. You could easily end up with a male and female.
There is also a chance of a female breeding too young or too small and becoming egg-bound. Although uncommon, it is a possibility and can happen.
With multiple snakes in the same enclosure you could easily loose them all if there happens to be an avenue of escape. Instead of losing one you could loose two or more depending on how many you decide to place together.
With multiple snakes in an enclosure, one or all of them could be stressed by the presence of the others. Stress can cause a drop in appetite and other health problems as well.
People will put multiple snakes in an enclosure and ask why one isn't eating.
When they are told it is probably due to stress caused by the other snake, the response is almost always the same "they like each other, they are always under the same hide together". Well this probably just means "that" hide or area of the tank has the optimum conditions they are looking for.
Snakes do not LIKE each other or ENJOY each other’s company.
There is no capacity for snakes to "like" or "enjoy".
I have kept multiple snakes together, without problems, but have made a choice to keep them separate. There are NO good arguments as to why you SHOULD keep them together but there ARE several good arguments as to why you SHOULD NOT.
So, in my opinion, although people do it successfully I just don't think it is worth the risk.
If you decide to keep multiple snakes together, watch closely for any signs of appetite loss, shedding problems, regurgitation or “personality” changes. These could all be signs of stress.
You would also want to feed them in separate containers and give them an hour or so before putting them back together.
My 2 cents
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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one more thing about housing corns together.i also keep some of my corns seperated and make a point to handle every corn i own at least 2 to 3 times a week. and i have to be honest with you the ones that are housed together love to be handled and the ones that are seperated are more skidish. and i think it is because the ones that are housed together are more used to being touched by the other snakes and don't mind being handled.that is one thing that i noticed.does anyone else that keeps some of their corns together and some seperated notice this also.or is it just my group of corns.

just sharing something that i noticed and don't want to get anyone angree.is there a right or wrong way to house our corns ?WHO KNOWS.i guess what ever works for you.one thing we all could agree on is that corns are the best