Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hey everyone;
ive known of people doing this , but i wanted to see everyones views on hybrids. now im talking Balls X bloods, Balls X carpets; and balls X burms., ive seen many pics. of these and a few in person; but are these breedings looked down upon in the ball world?

I think you just opened Pandora's Box on this one. There was heated debate a while back about this. They're not my favorite but that's my opinion.
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1.1 Blonde pastels
1.1 Lemon poss. het ghost pastels
1.1 Het albinos
1.6 Normals
1.0 BRB
0.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Cornsnakes
1.0 Gopher snake

Hybrids are lame, eventually, when the breeder cannot sell them, they will pollute the gene pool...LAME

its not polluting the gene pool, its strenghthening it.

just look at dogs, purebreds can have major problems, muts are healthy and happy.

but i agree that snakes should never be mislabeled
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jake barney

my addiction:
1.1 normal ball pythons
0.2.1 corns
1.0 albino cal king
0.0.1 wc garter

"its not polluting the gene pool, its strenghthening it.

just look at dogs, purebreds can have major problems, muts are healthy and happy.

but i agree that snakes should never be mislabeled"

how is it not polluting the gene pool? It is nothing like dogs. They are all the same species.

Breeding balls to other python species to improve the gene pool would equate to breeding dogs to coyotes in an attempt to improve the gene pool. This would not improve the gene pool in either case, just create hybrids which can pollute the gene pool if allowed to breed later with pure specimen.

You are correct, however, about the idea of mutts likely improving the gene pool. They are all the same species, but do have more diverse genetics which should help to minimize the expression of bad recessive genes. The equivalent for ball pythons would be out crossing an unrelated normal female into your albino line to create hets that can be bred back in to the original line that adding more diverse genetics. Just my 2 cents.

As for hybrids themselves. I'm not a fan, but am not going to stop someone else from being able to enjoy an animal

Domestic dogs may be the same species, but what does that really mean? It means no one has scientifically classified a chihuahua any different from a great dane. That argument doesn't hold any water since a species is a manmade concept. I don't see how you can say chihuahuas and great danes are more similar than ball pythons and blood pythons except by Latin name. Insular forms of many different boas are still classified as Boa c. imperator-the same down to subspecies level. Yet somehow I doubt you'd be fine with crossbreeding all of them, and for good reason. Taxonomy is constantly changing, so there's no sense in saying anything is right or wrong based on what's considered a species at the moment.

a hybrid I have been very fond of for years. True Bateaters that are 50/50 Burmese x Retic are very nice IMO, so my mind is open to them. One thing that did bother me was someone trying to push a high % Burmese cross as 50/50. That's my only concern, and it has to do with the tool selling the snake, not the snake itself.
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

The concept, in other words what we concieve, of species is man made but the phenomenon of species is not manmade. It is natural, real and much more complex than our conceptualization of it. Ball pythons and blood pythons may be able to breed together but that doesn't make them the same thing. They are not only separated by terrain they are "made" by terrain. In other words the areas they inhabit are the areas they have adapted to inhabit. That is different from breeds of dogs which have been altered to fit man and have no natural niche other than what man makes for them or what the remains of their insticts allow them to exploit.

you say they (dogs) are the same species but only accoerding to taxanomic classification. classifications are man made, not a natural selection. in my opinion with hybrids is if they can make viable offspring then they are closly related enough and taxonomy needs to be changed.
last year todd schaffer took a iran jaya carpet python from austrailia and a ball python from africa and created viable beutiful offspring. two snakes two continents and the babies are viable. that tells me that hybrids are needed in order to really undersatand how closely differant "species" are truly related.
kevin mcurly from nerd who is in the for front of ball python morphs has many hybrids in his collection, and creates many himnself. he is very repected and has no trouble selling his hybrids at all.
THE ONLY THING THAT KEEPS MOST "SPECIES" FROM INTEGRATING NATURALLY IS GEOGRAPHIC LOCATION ONLY. BY SAYING HYBRIDS ARE WORTHLESS IS SAYING THAT ALMOST ALL PEOPLE ON THIS EARTH ARE WORTHLESS BECAUSE VERY FEW PEOPLE ON THIS EARTH ARE OF "PURE" BLOOD. IF YOU WANT PURE BLOOD THEN GET A BOOK ON NAZI'S AND SEE HOW THAT THEORY WORKS OUT.
ADAM JEFFERY
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"CARLOS MENCIA FOR EL PRESIDENTE"
hybrid breeders association
1.1 puebladurans
1.1 sinacorns
1.1 hypo corns
1.1 crimson corns
1.1 striped ghosts
1.1 kenyan sand boas
1.1 mbk
1.1 albino corns
1.1 childrens python
1.3 ghost corns
2.2 butter(both females motley)
1.0 snow corns
1.0 jurassic milk
1.0 house snake
0.1 anery pueblacorn
0.1 bloodred
0.1 eastern milk (eatin pinks)
0.1 striped albino corn
0.1 albino nelsons
0.1 anery motley
0.1 normal corn het hypo,anery
0.1 hypo tang hondo
0.1 rosy boa

I don't like or buy hybrids and I feel that in time, high/low percentage hybrids that display one species more than another can and will be misrepresented. As many on this forum know, I've had a very hard time identifying a rat snake due to its being a hybrid (thanks for the help everybody). This opinion is not directed at the many responsible breeders who accurately represent their animals. Not my cup 'o' tea, but do what you like.....you don't need my permission.

Now, about this pure blood nazi thing....suggesting that we are all "mutts" or hybrids, which that was a reference to, is like claiming anyone who is not your race is a different species/sub-species and we've all hybridized. To then suggest those who disagree with you are "Nazis" in an attempt to silence debate is neither productive nor fair. Which races should be considered separate species....or do you have a book I could find that in?

More freedom, debate, and information.....NOT LESS!
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

LOL!!! And you know this because??? I usually sell hybrids quicker than pure stuff unless I sell the pure WAY WAY below market price. I'd like to know what kind of experience you have in selling hybrids.
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www.mesozoicreptiles.com

Well let the onslaught begin.........I dont mind hybrids I mean look anywhere in the animal kingdom and it does happen from time to time. An animal makes it to an island on a blown over tree and somehow mates with some indiginous animal from that island. Like the walleye and saugers in the Great Lakes make saugeyes and white bass and striped bass make wipers. I mean look at the comment someone made in reply to this post "I think balls should stay with balls, and bloods with bloods etc" to me that sounds like my Italian grandfather let the blacks stay with the blacks and the whites with the whites. I understand thats apples and oranges. I have 2 mutt dogs and wouldnt have it any other way. I mean its not like you can have pedigree papers like the AKC does for dogs not saying its not a bad idea but people usually frown on what they dont understand or fear hence fearing getting lets say a 4 generation ball python angolan hybrid that they were told was a ball wheres the harm? It has been proven that the blood ball can reproduce, the angolan ball can reproduce and time will tell about the burm ball and carpet ball. I personally dont have plans for crossing animals but I feel to each their own.
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Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

Then let it happen naturally!

I'm not a big hybrid guy myself, but to say "let it happen naturally" doesn't make too much sence. When I pull a male Ball Python from a CB-70 rack and put it into a females cage in a CB-70 rack, it doesn't sound too natural to me. I'm not trying to bash anyone, I'm just saying if things are represented properly it really doesn't matter too much. I personally don't care for hybrids much. But I love to look at some of the cool creations that some guys are doing. If you don't like them, then don't buy them. That's my two cents. Brian (BHB)

" fearing getting lets say a 4 generation ball python angolan hybrid that they were told was a ball wheres the harm?"

I am all for hybriders having the freedom to persue their version of happiness but that statement above is just wrong. It is not for anyone but the customer to decide where the harm is.

Personally I really don't see any benefit in hybrids, either in a species survival or hobbyist point of view. However, I can see how the combinations do produce some interesting results. I pretty much stay neutral on the whole subject. I won't breed hybrids nor buy them knowingly. But I don't grudge those who enjoy hybrids.
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PHLdyPayne

difference being I want them all...lol

>>Personally I really don't see any benefit in hybrids, either in a species survival or hobbyist point of view. However, I can see how the combinations do produce some interesting results. I pretty much stay neutral on the whole subject. I won't breed hybrids nor buy them knowingly. But I don't grudge those who enjoy hybrids.
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>>PHLdyPayne
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

carpondros color up very nicely
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"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"

Mike Curtin

>>carpondros color up very nicely
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>>"He who would stifle debate rather than engage in it, does so at the expense of his integrity and credibility"
>>
>>Mike Curtin
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

i love hybrids, but never bring them up in "pure" forums.

check out the hybrid forum
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jake barney

my addiction:
1.1 normal ball pythons
0.2.1 corns
1.0 albino cal king
0.0.1 wc garter

>>check out the hybrid forum

Umm.. isn't this the hybrid forum? LOL.

dg

This originally started in the ball python forum thats why he said check out the hybrid forum
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Damian Macioce
www.strongholdreptiles.com

was originaly posted in the ball forum, why do you think its a war?
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jake barney

my addiction:
1.1 ball pythons
0.2.1 corns
1.0 cal king
0.0.1 wc garter

DON'T DO IT!

that the same people who hate hybrids, say they are worthless and think they pollute the gene pool see no problem with inbreeding over generations to improve certain traits while causing new problems

i think hybrids are much better than morphs, more random, less common, more diverse and healthier. how is that pollution
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jake barney

my addiction:
1.1 ball pythons
0.2.1 corns
1.0 cal king
0.0.1 wc garter

but properly labeled as such...

>>that the same people who hate hybrids, say they are worthless and think they pollute the gene pool see no problem with inbreeding over generations to improve certain traits while causing new problems
>>
>>i think hybrids are much better than morphs, more random, less common, more diverse and healthier. how is that pollution
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>>jake barney
>>
>>my addiction:
>>1.1 ball pythons
>>0.2.1 corns
>>1.0 cal king
>>0.0.1 wc garter
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Everyone keeps comparing snake hybrids to dog "mutts" and interracial people, but those are NOT HYBRIDS! A cross between a wolf and a dog is a hybrid, and a cross between a human and a chimp would be more comparable to what is happening with ball x carpet pythons.
Humans are so close genetically that no "race" even classifies as a separate subspecies. An African Bushman (San)and an Inuit in Alaska both share the same classification name: Homo sapiens sapiens. The last existing subspecies was Homo sapiens neanderthalensis and some anthropologists don't even think THAT classification is right. They believe neanderthals and cro-magnons were the same subspecies, just different 'varieties'. Just as all dogs are also the same subspecies, just different 'breeds'.
The hybrids being created between balls and species from other continents is more comparable to "ligers" and mules.

Even when it occurs in nature, hybrids are not seen by many scientists to "strengthen the gene pool":

"[T]he indiscriminate cross-breeding of Indian cattle with the exotic Jersey and Holstein Friesian breeds under the Intensive Cattle Breeding Programme (ICDP) and the Operation Flood, has rendered more than 80 per cent of the Indian cattle in the non-descript category. In a country, which has the largest population of cattle in the world, and some 26 recognised breeds of cattle, genetic contamination had taken its toll. More than a dozen of the Indian cattle breeds have now disappeared. The unique genetic diversity and wealth that India possessed in cattle has gradually eroded."

"Nonindigenous species can bring about a form of extinction of native flora and fauna by hybridization and introgression either through purposeful introduction by humans or through habitat modification, bringing previously isolated species into contact. These phenomena can be especially problematic for rare species coming into contact with more abundant ones. Increased use of molecular techniques focuses attention on the extent of this under appreciated problem that is not always apparent from morphological observations alone. Some degree of gene flow is a normal, evolutionarily constructive process, and all constellations of genes and genotypes cannot be preserved. However, hybridization with or without introgression may, nevertheless, threaten a rare species' existence."

A first-generation hybrid is fine, but what if a "carpal" is bred back to a ball python and one of the offspring finds its way into the hands of someone who doesn't know its genetics as a hybrid?? Will the carpalXball be mistakenly seen as a new ball morph?

Everyone wants to play Dr. Frankenstein, I just hope everyone keeps track of what they're creating.

see i said i didnt want to start a forum fight, but i guess it was inevitable. all i asked is how they were viewed in the ball world and i got that and than some LOL. obviously everyone has their different views, likes, and dislikes. but nobody's really RIGHT here. if you want to make hybrids thats your choice, if you wanna keep blue blood thats all fine too. everyone do as you please, but as i read in a previous post on this subject; "do what you want, but atleast keep track of what you are creating."

now how bout we end this post on a good note? (everybody)

thanks for all your replies it was fun. HAHAHA

Many people seem to take access to the current variety of species and subspecies for granted. While hybrids should be respected(and allowed IMO) they do carry a risk. There will almost certainly come a time when we as hobbyist no longer have access to many species/subspecies and I fear many species are at risk of being lost to the hobby. Just as hybrids should be respected purebreds should be respected and encouraged. Purebreds educate us on natural selection and enrich many lives. They also can act as mascots for wild populations and foster appreciation for such. Hybrids foster that same appreciation in a different way. Lastly hybrids do not have a monopoly on diversity. Diversity in captive populations is something that is created through careful breeding. This hobby is very young and a hybrid breed is just as much at risk of loosing diversity as any other captive breed. The exception being willy-nilly random hybrids but just watch the furture. In the furture specific hybrids will be used to create specific domestic breeds. These specific domestic breeds will also be at just as much risk of being lost when we have no access to wild founder stock. Without pure wild founder stock there will be no way to get the ingredients for a specific hybrid recipe. So make the hybrids, be responsible and respect purebreds because they are the source of all.

So, to you hybrid bashers - (keep in mind I'm not bashing) - Who does it hurt to bring two different species of snake together to expand the captive market? Surely not you. Creating a hybrid is nowhre near as harmful as pulling the animals out of their natural environments for your profits. You breed to make money. You sell to people you don't know and may never know, people who could be buying your snakes to torture them one way or another, or people who are careless and will let these animals suffer until death. Hybrids aren't necessarily bred to make money(not saying this isn't a partial motive), but moreso are bred to experiment and to discover new beginnings in this industry. For someone to bash hybrid breeding, you're being a hypocrite. You brought animals in from the wild(maybe not directly) to fill your pockets. Stop complaining.