Reptile & Amphibian Forums

From what i could find on google, to make these you just shape styrofoam, adhere it together then coat a few times with cememnt? do i have that right? i only found a 3 good sites and 2 of them the finish product looked pretty fake. One was very good and the picture i posted earlier in "great stuff" post was very good.

Have you seen this one?

www.reptilerooms.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=Sections&file=index&req=viewarticle&artid=34&page=1
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I haven't actually built any of these, but I'm in the styrofoam piecing & carving stage of one.

In talking to many many people about it, and researching the topic a ton, I've found that it's probably best to use grout/tile adhesive, not cement. In talking to a couple masons, they recommend using grout/adhesive, and making a slurry coat, or a really thin watery coat that will seep down into all the cracks & everything, and help hold the grout to the styrofoam better without it cracking & flaking off.

Also- the big step that makes grout more useful is that water based grout sealer is much cheaper than cement sealer. If you want to keep your natural 'stone' color of the cement, use grout of some kind. Find whatever kind you like, and go with it. Then, seal it with water-based grout sealer, and you don't have to worry about animals' claws, or scrubbing scraping off parts of the grout.

In talking to masons, everyone's biggest worries were that the cement would flake off and make dust. Silica dust is a very hazardous material, and masons wear face masks for a reason, because they're trying to avoid mesophelioma. (i think that's the right term?) EVERYONE in the trade I talked to told me I'd have to seal it, or paint it with something, and the idea of plain old grey latex paint kind of disappointed me because it changes the color & texture.

Have fun building!

Being in the floorcovering biz with plenty of tile experience I have to agree with the suggested use of grout or the tile adhesive mortar, known as "thinset."

Both of these products are usually polymer modified, which adds bonding strength & flexibility. This shouldn't be a problem in the rock wall case but both are designed for 1/2 inch thickness or less. Going thicker than that can cause it to crack (stress fractures) but it can be repaired easily.

If you used grout you'd have a variety of colors to choose from but it's a bit more expensive. It's wtill not much money, though. If you use grout, I'd suggest using "sanded" grout as it has sand in it for extra texture and strength.

If you mix either one of these too thin it will weaken it's strength & bonding capabilities. A thin, creamy paste that drips off your finger tips is good versus a watery mix that runs off your finger tips. About the same consistency as maple syrup. Thereabout.

Show off your work here.

Have fun!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

>>If you mix either one of these too thin it will weaken it's strength & bonding capabilities. A thin, creamy paste that drips off your finger tips is good versus a watery mix that runs off your finger tips. About the same consistency as maple syrup. Thereabout.
>>

Are you recommending against a slurry coat?

> > > Are you recommending against a slurry coat?

No, not really. Slurry's not a word I use very often so I tried to give more of a visual referrence. I might have caused more confusion than clarification. Sorry if I did. Maybe more like a milkshake that's half-thawed or slightly more.

If you'll add just a lil' bit of water at a time, working from thick to thin, you'll find the right consistency that you'll be able to work with. Actually, if it's mixed thin enough to weaken it, or even too thick, it won't conform properly to the contours you've created. The good thing about it is you can always add more water or grout/thinset.

As far as creating rock forms in the poly insulation boards and/or styrofoam, I brushed acetone on it and they're both very sensitive. They'll suck every bit of acetone off the brush real quick if you're not careful and have very much on the brush.

Have a good one!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I brushed acetone on it and they're both very sensitive. They'll suck every bit of acetone off the brush real quick if you're not careful and have very much on the brush.

That's good to know. I have wondered about using solvent based spray paint (I believe most spray can paints are still solvent based) that is close to the color of the final product you desire. This will not only give you a better idea of how your project is turning out, but the weaker and/or diluted solvent should not have too extreme of an effect, like I would guess pure acetone would have (and you seem to confirm).
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

Since this will be your first time making faux-rock I would make the styro panels outside of the cage and then attach them to the inside once you are happy with them. You can fill any joints with some great stuff and a bit more topcoat.

A few more tips:

Expanded polystyrene is supposed to be easier to carve than styrofoam. Basically the dense pink or blue sheets you see at Home Improvement centers. These usually come in two densities, get the denser if you can.

A butane torch or some solvent sprayed onto carved polystyrene adds a lot of texture that is hard to duplicate with a knife. I have heard of using acetone as a solvent but assume you'd have to have an all-metal sprayer as it would melt plastic. Obviously be VERY careful if you decide to spray solvent and use ventilation. Also use ventilation if you melt it with a torch.

Do not paint concrete or tile grout if you can avoid it. Instead use concrete dye and/or stains to get the color you want.
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

Chris I hate having all the rough texture for two reasons
1 its next to imposible to clean without taking a scrubbrush to it. Which is a pain in this large of an encloser. I would like to be able to just wipe it down to clean it.
2 The animals that i keep in it (tokays) have injured their noses on it when going for crikets, while they have learned to not hit the food so hard they still bugger up thier nose every once in a while.

Do you think drylok would hold to concrete well enough to be able to paint it? or what would you suggest to smooth it out and also seal it?

While I don't think this will pose as much as a problem with a snake feeding on ft i still think cleaning poo would pose the same problem i have.
Nate

Do you think drylok would hold to concrete well enough to be able to paint it? or what would you suggest to smooth it out and also seal it?

Drylok is designed to adhere to concrete so I can't imagine a problem. However, it is a cement based paint so it already has a lot of texture and won't do much to smooth out the texture of the concrete. Instead I would go with a thicker paint that has good adhesion to concrete. I think Drylok makes a latex based garage floor paint that should work. Or any similar product.

Unfortunately any easy to clean paint is going to have some gloss and probably won't look very good over the rockwork. Maybe try a small part with some cheap paint to see if you can stand the look.
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

I was just reading Drylok's FAQ on their website the other day. Here's an excerpt:

Q. Can you paint over DRYLOK® Masonry Waterproofer? If yes, what is the procedure?
A. Yes, using 100% Acrylic Latex Paint. If Oil Base DRYLOK® Waterproofer was applied, wait 30 days to paint, 24 hours for Latex Base DRYLOK®.

Would an acrylic paint make it a tad more smoother?

Here's the link to the FAQ: www.ugl.com/drylockFaq.php

Catch ya later!
Mike
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

thanks Hillbilly I thought I read that as a plan b for this cage but I couldn't remember where?
Nate

You're more than welcome!

I hope you realize how valuable your personal experiences are and I appreciate you sharing 'em with us. I hope you're able to get it to where you're satisfied with it.

Blaze the trail! Ha! Ha!

take care!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Yes, but my point is that there is no need to even use the drylok if you can find a decent latex paint that will adhere to the concrete itself, especially since drylok is as textured as concrete to begin with.
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

Ha! I must've misread/misunderstood then 'cause I thought that Drylok had already been used. Yeah, I wouldn't use Drylok and then an acrylic if Drylok hasn't already been applied. Find a shortcut, for sure.

Catch ya later!
HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

I may have misunderstood as well. Drylok might be a good choice if Nate is looking for something just a but smoother than concrete, but I doubt it will be to his liking.

Nate, you catching all of this?
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

I get where you guys are going on this and I understand that drylok still has some texture but i figure coat it with a good coat of drylok and then smooth out the rest with a couple coats of paint. The texture of this background is pretty rough.

I know you don't like this idea Chris but I'm also contemplating coating the whole thing with a nice thick coat of flexable marine epoxy to just seal the whole thing up and then dying the epoxy to retain the rock look it will definatly hold up for life and be as easy to clean as I want. I'm pretty comfortable working with epoxy so it makes sense for me to try it.

what do you think?
Nate

My only concern would be the effect of the curing epoxy; would the curing process apply pressure that could crack the existing coating or break it's bond? I don't know, not familiar with epoxies.

HH
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Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

The curing of the epoxy would get hot but it doesn't expand. I did a test on a small piece of concrete on foam and got good results, granted on a larger scale the temps would be hotter. plus the vinyl concrete seems to be pretty flexable. It is a messy project but I could just do it at work on a day off.
Thanks for all the ideas guys,
Nate

The drylok might do a better job than regular paint at filling up some of the texture. But I also suspect there are better paints for the job, including some of Drylok's other products.

Epoxy is a good idea, although I would not mess with marine stuff unless you already have some laying around or have access to a small amount. Instead I would get a small Envirotex Lite kit and use that. I have seen this used before and it can be buffed out to a matte finish somehow which looks much better of rockwork.

Another idea is to try modeling paste or mix up your own. Basically you just take an acrylic bonding agent and mix in calcium carbonate dust or even granite dust and apply it over the rockwork. I would go to an art store and get a small jar of Liquitex modeling paste and try it.

Europeans take acrylic bonding agents and mix in peat or ground coconut husk to make background coatings. I should have some sites bookmarked if you need them.
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

>>
>>Europeans take acrylic bonding agents and mix in peat or ground coconut husk to make background coatings. I should have some sites bookmarked if you need them.

Can I have the links?

I guess I don't have them bookmarked - though I did. I'll try to remember the terms of my search, or see if I have them in the sent folder of my email account.

Are you mostly interested in the fake rock stuff or the peat/coco fiber backgrounds?
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

All of it, honestly.

I'm looking at so many different things I can do that would all look nice. It's hard to figure exactly what I want to do!

I'm thinking of doing a combination between a rockwall and the coconut/peat background. rock on one side, coconut/peat on the other. Or mixed together. Not sure how it'd look.

I probably won't have time to find it today. Don't hesitate to send me a reminder in the next couple of days if you have not heard back from me.
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Currently keeping a small collection of various Gonyosoma. Both G. janseni and G. oxycephala.

Heres one you could check out if you havn't already.
http://www.blackjungle.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=2108
Nate

I'm guessing that if I secure my background to my aquarium with Great Stuff, if I decide I don't want the background in that aquarium anymore, I could just remove it with some acetone.

Am I correct in assuming this?