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Another recent acquisition, this is a brooksi-type Florida king from South Dade County bloodlines. He even has the shorter head many attribute to brooksi. I need a female for him, too. He's still got some orange coloration on the scales between the bands, and I wouldn't be surprised if he was very orange as a hatchling. I think selecting for less orange as a hatchling would result in a cleaner looking brooks as an adult.

He even has the shorter head many attribute to brooksi

I used to beleive this about the smaller shorter head but recently i acquired a pair of floridana that have the shortest smallest heads ever. They are locality around lake Okeechobee, Hillsboro Co..

So what do you think is up with that.

Also got a question. I have been talking to some locals down on the florida keys that tell me they find brooksi that are very small with tiny heads. Have you ever you or anyone else here ever heard of or seen these localities?
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

how small of a head can a snake have? are these mature specimens? do they look like pinheads? maybe they are specialists for whats available out on the keys- lizards, crabs, minnows...correct mr if I am wrong, but I can't imagine the rodent population can be anything like it would be on the mainland?
those keys brooksi may be to the mainland population what OBK's are to NC getula. so LETS GO SPLITTERS! DOWN WITH LUMPERS! MORE SUBSPECIES!!!!! Lampropeltis getula microcephalus/keysii...

hahaha, only kidding. we don't need to be generating literature that will be refuted in 10 years...

and to finish, a picture of a syracuse locale short headed ghost brooksi phase of floridana...

but everyone likes a little h....
oh, nevermind.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

LOL

wild side...
do dodo dodo do dododo dodo dodo...

mark, do you owe me an email?
peace,
daveb

Oh you mean regarding pine snakes? I kinda forgot....
I'll get right on it.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

I've seen short heads in Florida kingsnakes from Hillsborough County, like this one of crimsonking's

I've also seen them with short heads from Levy County, and around Lake Okeechobee. I've also seen WC Dade County floridana that didn't have the short head, so I don't know. It doesn't seem like a consistent trait.

You mentioned your snakes were from around Lake Okeechobee, Hillsbough County? Hillsborough County is a long way away from Lake Okeechobee. Maybe you mean Hendry County?

As far as Florida keys kingsnakes, there's only one record of a kingsnake from the keys, from upper Key Largo. Herpers have claimed to have found kingsnakes in the keys, but I haven't seen any pictures or heard of any reliable accounts. If someone were to produce a specimen or a voucher photo, it would be pretty significant.

Hey - I got hassled by Hendry County Sheriffs once. I forgot that until I read your post. He (big, fat, southern sheriff type) told me road cruising was illegal in Hendry County and followed me to the county line.

Thanks for the bad memory...

Joe

>>So what do you think is up with that.

Brooksi and floridana are pattern phenotypes that can (or at least could) be found side by side as far north as Okeechobee and Oscela Counties, and south into Dade County. Although the brooks phase is(was) more common in Southern Dade County, you can (or could) find typical floridana there too. So, locality doesn't automatically label a Central or Southern getula as either a floridana or a "brooksi". Being they could be found side by side, I think it's mistake to consider one more "brooks" based on a smaller head shape.

Case in point, this is my axanthic Florida King, I know you seen this pic, but I think she shows exactly what I mean. She has the
small head shape that some attribute to the brooks phase, but shows a very distinct floridana pattern. So, she shows head shape isn't exclusive to a certain pattern phase. I will admit I have no background to her other than she was sold to me as a N.E. phase axanthic.

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Ace

If that is a NEW ENGLAND line axanthic it came directly from the canal stock in s .dade county. If it was outbred then well..

I know that you will find brooksi looking snakes under the same board as floridana looking snake in s florida. But I was wondering if the "small heads" were something more common in those areas than further north as some suggested. Evidently not.

Reports from the Florida Keys is that these snakes all have very small short heads and that is what prompted my question.

I will post pics of my Okechobee kings later this week to show their heads. They are very small and short.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Wild caught graybands have really flat arrowhead shaped heads. Captive born babies are often born that way but as they mature there heads often take on a rounder less arrowhead shape. This is thought to be because wild graybands are always jamming themselves into narrow crevices. Maybe the habits of the individual snake partially determines the head shape.

>>If that is a NEW ENGLAND line axanthic it came directly from the canal stock in s .dade county. If it was outbred then well..

I'm happy calling her an N.E.axanthic Florida King, beyond that....???

>>Reports from the Florida Keys is that these snakes all have very small short heads and that is what prompted my question.

The only report of a Kingsnake in the Keys I'm aware of is a Scarlet King. I'm not sure if that's the same reference FoxTurtle was referring to or not? But, I'd agree that if there was a population of floridana found there (no matter what phase) it'd be pretty big news.

>>I will post pics of my Okechobee kings later this week to show their heads. They are very small and short.

Well, That won't do me any good. For some reason all I get when you post pics are the dreaded red X's? Not really sure why either, my browser doesn't have any sites blocked and it seems everyone else can see them, so it must be something on my end? I can see everyone else's pics, but for some reason yours don't come through?

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Ace

"I'm happy calling her an N.E.axanthic Florida King, beyond that....???

Not sure what you mean by that?

Did you know that New Englands are a line and not a strain? If it is a true NE and not outcrossed it came from the canal stock.

But nowadays i see many New Englands advertised by people that are not NE's. The name seems to be marketable so people steal the name or just don't know any better because that what they were told when they paid $50-$100 for it (NE have always gone for $125). Some big name breeders have outcrsossed a NE to another line of axanthic and are still calling them NE's.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

>>Not sure what you mean by that?

I see what you mean. I do have the feeling she's been outcrossed at some time in her background, because she doesn't have the same "look" that others have posted for their N.E.'s. I did see the breeders female adult, which had more of the same look as other N.E.'s I've seen. So, maybe just Axanthic Florida King would be best.
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Ace