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Ok... this snake was produced by me in 2003...it is in my friends collection....I took a bubblegum rat...bred it to a Blotchless Everglades from dwight good...and refined line to get BRIGHT orange Blotchless bubble gum rats....

bubble gum...

Blotchless everglades...

here is the final product...

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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Frank,....

That is one "KICK-ASS" final product!!,....but what is really strange is the fact that the first pic marked "Bubblegum " looks like a "normal" Yellow/Black Rat cross,... and not the amel. Yellow/Everglades x amel Black Rat that comprises a "Bubblegum"!.

Is it the right photo???

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I may be wrong on the bubblegum name....that snake was sold to me as a bubblegum ( yellow / black / everglades ) het albino....

so basically I bred out the blotches and bred the brightest orange ones getting the final results...

>>Frank,....
>>
>> That is one "KICK-ASS" final product!!,....but what is really strange is the fact that the first pic marked "Bubblegum " looks like a "normal" Yellow/Black Rat cross,... and not the amel. Yellow/Everglades x amel Black Rat that comprises a "Bubblegum"!.
>>
>> Is it the right photo???
>>
>> best regards, ~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

so I guess I toned down the yellow and black genes out by using an everglades and refining another generation...so I do not know what to call the darn thing...looks like a bright everglades to me...but they do not have blotches that change as they mature..dwight goods Blotchless gene..worked wonders...they are get more colorful as they age...

>>I may be wrong on the bubblegum name....that snake was sold to me as a bubblegum ( yellow / black / everglades ) het albino....
>>
>>so basically I bred out the blotches and bred the brightest orange ones getting the final results...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>>Frank,....
>>>>
>>>> That is one "KICK-ASS" final product!!,....but what is really strange is the fact that the first pic marked "Bubblegum " looks like a "normal" Yellow/Black Rat cross,... and not the amel. Yellow/Everglades x amel Black Rat that comprises a "Bubblegum"!.
>>>>
>>>> Is it the right photo???
>>>>
>>>> best regards, ~Doug
>>>>-----
>>>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"
>>-----
>>Thanks,
>>
>>Frank Roberts
>>Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research
>>
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Frank,....

What color are the eyes on the "final product" animal?...I can't quite tell from the photo.

In any case, I think your snake in the top photo marked "Bubblegum", must actually be het for the trait, because something weird is going on.

The "Blotchless" Everglades photo, in actually a hypo Everglades. They typically have an almost absent striping due to the greatly reduced melanin. And it has dark eyes as well.

True "Bubblegums" were started by Bill Love, then of "Glades Herp Inc." around 1990, by crossing an albino Yellow Ratsnake to an albino Black Ratsnake. He then introduced the Everglades gene into the albino cross to intensify the coloration.

"Bubblegums" are extremely variable, with some being almost solid pink/orange, while others can be very blotchy with orange and pink highlights, etc....also, as one might expect, they have pink/red eyes due to the amel influence in the three subspecies of the "obsoleta" complex.

The Everglades in your second photo, is a VERY nice example of hypomelanism, because it super "clean", and bright, yet still retains faint remnants of the striping, and also has dark eyes.

In any case, the animal you produced is totally "KICK-ASS", and has a VERY rich orange coloration that is second to none!, that's for sure!

Here is a photo I dug up of a nice example of "Bubblegum" Ratsnake.

That is one INTENSELY colored animal you have!, hope you produce some more of those beauties!.

best regards, ~Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

More bubblegums, mine. Top pic is POSSIBLY a Love line, he's about 11-12 years old and the bottom two are Greg Connor animals. I need to get a pic of a female I have with the red/orange background and the white saddles. She'll be for sale though soon. I have no need to breed them.
Unfortunately a work filter here is blocking the original pictures in the post I cant see what all the hub-bub is about.

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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

I guess this one would be a typical Love line bubblegum

This girl has such a strong feeding response I can only open the cage if I'm going to be feeding. I'll probably sell her soon as I have no intentions of breeding bubblegums and she's just takng up space I need for other stuff. She's from Greg Connor.
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Tom

"The more people I meet, the more I like my snakes"

makes me believe your line of reasoning is correct...the albinos I produced where not as nice as the one you posted...there was three different looking albinos...I assumed to the highly variable coloration with the neonates it made the albinos look very different from one another...what do you think I should call them ? Those are the adults that helped create the deep orange animal...with one more generation of line breeding...they where highly variable...some even the opposite of bright orange...a few where dull yellow/orange...some brown...the rest appeared to be a nice orange...this particular ones (orange colored) grew into these deep orange ones pictured...I sold all the animals...but have access to a pair of them...I have bred a lot of rat snakes...those turned out the best...I have a lot lucy texas rats and a lavender as well...I may also start a line with some lucy to make something a little different..maybe not who knows...I will mix the lucy and lavender for sure..both are supposedly texas rat snakes...

Leucistic Texas Rat snakes...

Lavender / Albino Bell stock...

also a pic of a female texas rat from dwight good that unfortunately escaped...I know snakes are considered escape artists...IMO rat snakes are the Houdini's of the snake world....lol

BTW eyes are not red..they are dark though...tint of orange as well....

-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

>>I have a lot lucy texas rats and a lavender as well...I may also start a line with some lucy to make something a little different..maybe not who knows...I will mix the lucy and lavender for sure..both are supposedly texas rat snakes...

Hey Frank,
While on the topic of Texas rats, here are some old pics that I dug up:

Axanthic and hypo

Hypo and het

If you are looking to color up your texas rat lines, you should try to find some Kathy Love stock. She outcrossed her leucistics to her local yellow/glades rats and produced some really colorful hets over the years. I almost bought a few of her texas x yellow/glades adults a few years ago in Daytona (they were huge snakes) but had already spent way more than I had planned. Oh well.

Later,
dg

>>>>I have a lot lucy texas rats and a lavender as well...I may also start a line with some lucy to make something a little different..maybe not who knows...I will mix the lucy and lavender for sure..both are supposedly texas rat snakes...
>>
>>Hey Frank,
>>While on the topic of Texas rats, here are some old pics that I dug up:
>>
>>Axanthic and hypo
>>
>>
>>Hypo and het
>>
>>
>>If you are looking to color up your texas rat lines, you should try to find some Kathy Love stock. She outcrossed her leucistics to her local yellow/glades rats and produced some really colorful hets over the years. I almost bought a few of her texas x yellow/glades adults a few years ago in Daytona (they were huge snakes) but had already spent way more than I had planned. Oh well.
>>
>>Later,
>>dg
>>
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Great lookin' animals Frank!,......All of them!

I'm glad some sense was made about some of the points mentioned previously. Also, when I mentioned earlier about the first pic looking "normal", It only meant it wasn't an amel, and certainly didn't imply that there is only one specific look to them, as we both know they are variable, especially when they can have a higher percentage of genetic influence from one, or more of the three subspecies involved.

In recent years, I haven't been involved much with them, but I do know about their origin, and don't know about what sort of possible gene-flow from what types of animals has influenced some of the lines that are out there on the market today.

My reasoning is based on what I know about the original strain from years ago, and what Bill Love's animals looked like, as well as a few friends of mine that have some.

As expected, some tend to get more vividly colored, while some stay a more muted light pink(especially when young), and yet some adults stay this way as well.

In R.D. Bartlett's book ~Corn Snakes and Other Rat Snakes~ published in 1996, Bill had some pics of one that looked about exactly like the one I posted, and a sub-adult that looked very light pink with slightly darker blotching.

In comparison, a good friend of mine has some adults that are a more solid orange/pink casting, with no significant blotches.

Anyway, with that said, there certainly is seems to be alot of variables in these.

The awesome deep orange/red animal you produced, since you varified the eye color,(dark with hint of orange in iris)and you can plainly see some striping on it, has to be an EXCEPTIONALLY rich colored "hypo"!.......Not sure what I'd call the strain though, but it sure does warrant a good "dreamed-up" name because of the unique vivid look!......I would certainly do some line-breeding to get more results like that!

Anyway, that's my "two-cents" on the deal.

good luck with some future projects!!...........~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

For my two cents, hypomelanistic is just a description. Doug's snake clearly has fainter than normal striping and less melanin wash beneath the orange. Those two snakes look clearly different as babies but Doug's adult definitely has reduced melanin and that is what hypo means. I'll defer to your explanation Dwight - always have - but I wanted to weigh in on this discussion.
What about this snake? She has no trace of visible melanin anywhere so, by the straight definition, that makes it amelanistic. Any debate there?

>>For my two cents, hypomelanistic is just a description. Doug's snake clearly has fainter than normal striping and less melanin wash beneath the orange. Those two snakes look clearly different as babies but Doug's adult definitely has reduced melanin and that is what hypo means. I'll defer to your explanation Dwight - always have - but I wanted to weigh in on this discussion.
>>What about this snake? She has no trace of visible melanin anywhere so, by the straight definition, that makes it amelanistic. Any debate there?
>>
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

If there is ANY melanin whatsoever including the pupil, it cannot be "amelanistic"(unless it's a paradox, which it's not).

It could then only be a hypo, or a "blotchless" animal such as the two examples posted by Frank and Dwight.

Great looking animal you have!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>For my two cents, hypomelanistic is just a description.

Mark,
I follow what you are saying, but in my opinion the label "hypo" should only be applied to specimens that actually have the hypomelanistic genotype. By that I mean just because a snake looks like it has "reduced melanin" that doesn't make it a hypomelanistic. While it is certainly hypomelanistic by definition (as you stated), in actuality it might be within the range of individual variation of the normal phenotype. Its hard to put into words what I am trying to say. Let's say you went out and collected 15 corn snakes from the wild and placed them in a large container. You picked out the most "reduced black" male and female from the group. While by definition they might be "hypos".. do you think that would be correct? (Maybe a bad example since hypo corns are often found in the wild.. lol) Its been a long day.

>> Doug's snake clearly has fainter than normal striping and less melanin wash beneath the orange. Those two snakes look clearly different as babies but Doug's adult definitely has reduced melanin and that is what hypo means.

Doug's snake? Do you mean my snake? Or Frank's? I'll go back and re-read the threads, I might have missed a pic?

>>What about this snake? She has no trace of visible melanin anywhere so, by the straight definition, that makes it amelanistic. Any debate there?

Mark, I'd say your snake is a really nice hypo. But like I mentioned in my email, sometimes the terms are used interchangeably in the hobby. At a reptile show one seller might call them "hypos" and the seller across the room might call them "albinos." Which is correct? I don't know. I call mine hypos since that's what Kathy Love called hers.

dg

your points Dwight. You explained them quite well. Doug, are you saying that pupil is colored by melanin? That doesn't match with my understanding of eye biology but I'm not a scientist. To me, if you can't see any traces of melanin in the snake as a hatchling or adult, then I would be perfectly comfortable calling it amelanistic. No blood shed here.

Well, by now it's hard to know exactly which snakes we're talking about any more from all the different pics that were posted, but to be an amelanistic animal, there has to be ZERO melanin anywhere on the body, including the eyes, they must be
pink/red. Otherwise, if there are any traces of dark pigment(melanin) in the animal, it would be a "hypomelanistic" animal.
with the exception of the "blotchless" trait.

I say this ONLY because this trait is expressed VERY differently from the typical hypos in the fact that it starts out from the egg as a homozygous(exhibiting trait) animal without the normal wild-type blotching, although in addition to this, it really is TECHNICALLY a "hypo" animal too, only it shows the trait with an absents/reduction in dark pattern(blotches when young)instead of a reduced amount of melanin within the cell itself(melanophore/melanocyte). Many people are under the impression that a "hypo" animal has to be a faded lighter "gray" coloration, when actually hypomelanism can also be expressed in many snakes by exhibiting a great reduction in the pattern, AND/OR coloration.
In other words, they CAN exhibit very DARK coloration, as long as THAT pattern of dark pigment(melanin) is greatly deminished. A good example would be say,....a cornsnake that was normally colored, but only had a few scales of dark pigment(melanin) on the entire animal that bordered the blotches on the dorsum(back).

I also hope this isn't misunderstood as me saying the "blotchless" Everglades is a regular hypo, because it definitely is NOT!. That is a different type of trait(s)Much of this is pertaining to ALL snake genetics, not just a specific species of snake.

hope this helps some, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>Great lookin' animals Frank!,......All of them!
>>
>> I'm glad some sense was made about some of the points mentioned previously. Also, when I mentioned earlier about the first pic looking "normal", It only meant it wasn't an amel, and certainly didn't imply that there is only one specific look to them, as we both know they are variable, especially when they can have a higher percentage of genetic influence from one, or more of the three subspecies involved.
>>
>> In recent years, I haven't been involved much with them, but I do know about their origin, and don't know about what sort of possible gene-flow from what types of animals has influenced some of the lines that are out there on the market today.
>>
>> My reasoning is based on what I know about the original strain from years ago, and what Bill Love's animals looked like, as well as a few friends of mine that have some.
>>
>> As expected, some tend to get more vividly colored, while some stay a more muted light pink(especially when young), and yet some adults stay this way as well.
>>
>> In R.D. Bartlett's book ~Corn Snakes and Other Rat Snakes~ published in 1996, Bill had some pics of one that looked about exactly like the one I posted, and a sub-adult that looked very light pink with slightly darker blotching.
>>
>> In comparison, a good friend of mine has some adults that are a more solid orange/pink casting, with no significant blotches.
>>
>> Anyway, with that said, there certainly is seems to be alot of variables in these.
>>
>> The awesome deep orange/red animal you produced, since you varified the eye color,(dark with hint of orange in iris)and you can plainly see some striping on it, has to be an EXCEPTIONALLY rich colored "hypo"!.......Not sure what I'd call the strain though, but it sure does warrant a good "dreamed-up" name because of the unique vivid look!......I would certainly do some line-breeding to get more results like that!
>>
>> Anyway, that's my "two-cents" on the deal.
>>
>> good luck with some future projects!!...........~Doug
>>-----
>>"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

>> The "Blotchless" Everglades photo, in actually a hypo Everglades. They typically have an almost absent striping due to the greatly reduced melanin. And it has dark eyes as well.

LOL, I can see where you might be confused but trust me that is NOT a hypo everglades. I know, I took that photo. They do look very similar to hypos as adults. Here are some other pics that I dug up (old 35mm prints scanned in) from the mid 90s:

Another pic of Frank's snake:

And a pic of a hypomelanistic everglades:

As you can see from the poor quality photos they do indeed look very similar. However the difference is more noticeable when the snakes are younger.

Here is a hatchling blotchless:

And here is a photo of a hatchling hypo everglades and a normal sibling:

And here is a hypo after a few sheds:

The hypos are born with blotches and they gradually blend in with the ground color as the snake matures whereas the blotchless are born striped and remain that way. As adults there isn't much difference, other than that most hypos are much more richly colored than the blotchless (or at least the ones I've owned and seen in collections.)

>> Here is a photo I dug up of a nice example of "Bubblegum" Ratsnake.

Yep, that is a perfect example of a Love line albino bubblegum rat snake. I've had a few of those myself over the years. Here is a pic I dug up:

Kathy told me at a show one time that she actually selectively bred for the most orange specimens, and all of the offspring that I ever raised from her really show it.

Hope this helps,
dg

Okay, I stand corrected on that.

I was going by "face-value" of what I could see in the pics.

Like you said, without VERY close examination, they could certainly be mistaken for each other!....certainly it is blotchless when I see the pic of the neonate.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

awesome animal...damn rat snakes lol

>>>> The "Blotchless" Everglades photo, in actually a hypo Everglades. They typically have an almost absent striping due to the greatly reduced melanin. And it has dark eyes as well.
>>
>>LOL, I can see where you might be confused but trust me that is NOT a hypo everglades. I know, I took that photo. They do look very similar to hypos as adults. Here are some other pics that I dug up (old 35mm prints scanned in) from the mid 90s:
>>
>>Another pic of Frank's snake:
>>
>>
>>And a pic of a hypomelanistic everglades:
>>
>>
>>As you can see from the poor quality photos they do indeed look very similar. However the difference is more noticeable when the snakes are younger.
>>
>>Here is a hatchling blotchless:
>>
>>
>>And here is a photo of a hatchling hypo everglades and a normal sibling:
>>
>>
>>And here is a hypo after a few sheds:
>>
>>
>>The hypos are born with blotches and they gradually blend in with the ground color as the snake matures whereas the blotchless are born striped and remain that way. As adults there isn't much difference, other than that most hypos are much more richly colored than the blotchless (or at least the ones I've owned and seen in collections.)
>>
>>>> Here is a photo I dug up of a nice example of "Bubblegum" Ratsnake.
>>
>>Yep, that is a perfect example of a Love line albino bubblegum rat snake. I've had a few of those myself over the years. Here is a pic I dug up:
>>
>>
>>
>>Kathy told me at a show one time that she actually selectively bred for the most orange specimens, and all of the offspring that I ever raised from her really show it.
>>
>>Hope this helps,
>>dg
>>
>>
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

That is a cool looking bubblegum--is that yours?

Belive it or not, that is a pic of a VERY nice specimen that was offered for free adoption from a rescue league from way up north(Michigan I believe).

I certainly wouldn't have minded owning that girl!!LOL, but living in central Florida would have made that impossible.

I really like the looks of that one as well!

best regards, Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>> What color are the eyes on the "final product" animal?...I can't quite tell from the photo.
>>
>> In any case, I think your snake in the top photo marked "Bubblegum", must actually be het for the trait, because something weird is going on.

After reading these threads a few times, I think I finally got what you've been saying. Bubblegums are actually the amelanistic product of the three way black/yellow/glades cross, not the heterozygous form. While there are some people in the hobby (myself included) who have referred to the normal form of this cross as a "bubblegum", I see now that would actually be incorrect. As an example, it'd be like calling the heterozygous product of an albino corn X emoryi a "creamsicle." Only the amels are creams. DUH!

dg

Dwight,......

RIGHT ON !!!!!!.......Now we understand each other!

that would be JUST like your example of calling a corn/emory cross a "creamcicle" without it being amel!!

I'm glad we understand each other on that now.

Ya see,......years ago, there were ONLY the true
"bubblegums"(albino Black, albino yellow, albino Everglades) on
the market, because they were a new deal.....Since then, there have been many breeders using the same three ratsnake "recipe"
for them, but not necessarily using amel in the mix, or at best,
only some animals would be het for the "bubblegum" trait.

As a matter of fact, I was starting to wonder if some of the breeders today were calling the three-way cross a "bubblegum" without it actually being amel, and like you stated, that really wouldn't be correct.

I'm glad we could chat and straighten that out!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>> what is really strange is the fact that the first pic marked "Bubblegum " looks like a "normal" Yellow/Black Rat cross,...

Actually it looks nothing like a normal yellow/black rat cross. A subadult normal yellow/black rat cross is pictured below, its colors are fully developed yet but you can get the general idea:

This animal was hatched by me.

Most yellow/black rat crosses are various shades of olive/green and black with bright yellow highlights. The snake in Frank's picture has much more brownish orange, which is typical of the normal phase of yellow/black/everglades (bubblegum rats). Most I've seen were more brown but that could have been due to a higher percentage of black rat in the mix versus everglades.

An exception to the more brownish (copper?) look can be seen below. It is a photo of an intergrade animal produced by breeding a black/yellow rat (greenish rat) to an everglades rat snake. Although the snake is comprised of 50% everglades "genes" it doesn't show near the orange that Frank's snake does.

Hope this helps,
dg

>>its colors are fully developed yet but you can get the general idea:

That should have read: its colors aren't fully developed yet.

>>>> what is really strange is the fact that the first pic marked "Bubblegum " looks like a "normal" Yellow/Black Rat cross,...
>>
>>Actually it looks nothing like a normal yellow/black rat cross. A subadult normal yellow/black rat cross is pictured below, its colors are fully developed yet but you can get the general idea:
>>
>>
>>
>>This animal was hatched by me.
>>
>>Most yellow/black rat crosses are various shades of olive/green and black with bright yellow highlights. The snake in Frank's picture has much more brownish orange, which is typical of the normal phase of yellow/black/everglades (bubblegum rats). Most I've seen were more brown but that could have been due to a higher percentage of black rat in the mix versus everglades.
>>
>>An exception to the more brownish (copper?) look can be seen below. It is a photo of an intergrade animal produced by breeding a black/yellow rat (greenish rat) to an everglades rat snake. Although the snake is comprised of 50% everglades "genes" it doesn't show near the orange that Frank's snake does.
>>
>>
>>
>>Hope this helps,
>>dg
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Fantastic looking snake you've got there.

I just happen to own a pair of deep red Everglades Rats and a pair of albino blotchless Yellow Rats (Mark Bell), so now I know what my next project will be.

Thanx for posting (and keep them coming).

>>Fantastic looking snake you've got there.
>>
>>I just happen to own a pair of deep red Everglades Rats and a pair of albino blotchless Yellow Rats (Mark Bell), so now I know what my next project will be.
>>
>>Thanx for posting (and keep them coming).
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Those are great looking snakes!

I really dig what you did there Frank.

byron.d

great part is these snakes are pretty cheap and have a lot to work towards...and being one of my favorite types of snake makes it pleasurable and worth the efforts put into it...that was my goal a bright orange ratsnake born with no blotches... kewl stuff..all are also pos het albinos as well...
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

Those are some nice looking snakes. Several years ago I started a project to produce a bright red/orange albino rat snake. I had two female everglades from Kathy Love that I bred to a albino bubble gum that was het for striped. I kepted three of offspring, one of which was the spitting image of yours. I was successful in that project. After seeing your photos, I wished I kept some of the normals. Each generation of young had a great deal of color variation. Thank you for sharing.

>>Those are some nice looking snakes. Several years ago I started a project to produce a bright red/orange albino rat snake. I had two female everglades from Kathy Love that I bred to a albino bubble gum that was het for striped. I kepted three of offspring, one of which was the spitting image of yours. I was successful in that project. After seeing your photos, I wished I kept some of the normals. Each generation of young had a great deal of color variation. Thank you for sharing.
-----
Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research

If I did this right, you are looking at a photo of the snake I was talking about.

reminds me of the orginal male I used to make this extreme orange ratsnake...snake was sold to me as a pos het albino bubblegum also outbred to an everglades...
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Thanks,

Frank Roberts
Roberts' Realm Of Reptile Research