Reptile & Amphibian Forums

My 8 year old caught and has kept 2 garter snakes for over two years. The first one died a few weeks ago and the second one just died this morning. He's terribly sad over this and I want to try to figure out what happened. The snakes were kept in separate tanks. We have been feeding them goldfish from a national pet store chain. Both snakes died shortly after a feeding. We didn't notice anything odd with the first one. The second snake however was opening his mouth very widely and repeatedly for about a day before he died. He also seemed to have been tensing his neck/body just behind the head. We thought he might have been getting ready to shed. Instead, we woke up this morning to find him dead. We live in northern Arizona at an elevation of 7400 feet so we have a 4 season climate. The snakes were originally caught in a nearby pond. Does anyone have an thoughts?

It sounds like it may have been the all-goldfish diet that eventually did them in. Goldfish, in large quantities, are actually toxic to reptiles in large amounts due to certain enzymes and and copper-compound medications they are often treated with. I didn't even know about the goldfish issue until I bought my first garter a couple months ago and started reading on here for information (and I used to feed goldfish to non-rodent-eating garters at work), so don't feel too bad about this mistake. If you get more garters in the future, feed them Rosy Red Minnows or Guppies, and you shouldn't have these problems. Or better yet, get them onto a diet of frozen/thawed rodents, which are more nutritionally complete and free of parasites.

Here's a bit of info on feeding captive garters:

www.thamnophis.com/caresheets/index.php?title=Garter_Snake_Care_Sheet#Feeding
www.gartersnake.info/care/feeding.phtml
-----
- Natalie
(San Francisco Bay Area)

1.0 Banded California King
1.0 Mexican Black King
1.0 Goini Kingsnake
1.0 Bay of LA Rosy Boa
0.1 San Ignacio Rosy Boa
0.1 Ortiz Rosy Boa
2.2 Kenyan Sand Boas
0.1 Saharan Sand Boa
1.2 Rubber Boas
0.1 Pickering's Gartersnake

Thanks for the information. My son loved those snakes and it will be helpful as we think about a new one for him.

maybe you should look into cornsnakes or captive bred garters
-----
jake barney

my addiction:
1.1 ball pythons
0.2.1 corns
1.0 cal king
0.0.1 wc garter

maybe they died from something on the fish, ask the store
-----
jake barney

my addiction:
1.1 ball pythons
0.2.1 corns
1.0 cal king
0.0.1 wc garter

Due to the sudden onset of syptoms, I agree that the goldfish were probably treated with something toxic. The medications administered to fish to treat problems like ick, fungus and bacterial infections can make them unsafe to use as feeders. This would apply to any type of petstore fish.

Goldfish also have an enzyme that breaks down the B vitamin thymiamine. When fed as a dietary staple, long term, this can result in nutritional deficiencies. This makes fish like guppies or minnows a better choice.

What species of garter do you have? Most can be converted to rodents fairly easily if you're willing to put in a little work. Rodents have the advantage of typically being parasite free and nutritionally balanced. It's best to select a young snake as they tend to be more flexible.

There are a few methods that work to get them onto rodents. First try an appropriately sized rodent straight up; sometimes you get lucky (you can use a long pair of forceps to mimic movement if feeding pre-killed). If it doesn't accept the mouse offer it fish instead to get it eating. The next time you feed put a washed pre-killed mouse in the bowl with a fish. Gradually you can stop adding fish and just put a mouse in the bowl, and eventually just a mouse in the cage. If this doesn't work you can try rubbing a fish on a washed pre-killed mouse and offer it on forceps or put it somewhere the snake will run into it. If this still doesn't work, you can take a dead fish, cut off a piece and put it on a pre-killed washed mouse. You can gradually decrease how much fish you put on down to none. If feeding anything larger than a small pinky, it's best to feed frozen thawed or pre-killed rodents for the safety of your snake.

I have four garters including a western black-neck I caught in Arizona a couple of years ago. I got them all to take rodents using the above methods. The western blackneck was the most difficult, but I got it started using the piece of fish on a pinky method. They seem to be able to smell the mice as soon as I walk in the room on feeding day and start racing around their tanks in anticipation, and grab the mice off the forceps as soon as I put them in the tank. I've heard that the AZ checkers and wanderings are typically easy to convert.

-Alice

Thanks for the information. It's got to be the fish based on what you and others have told me. We've decided to purchase a captive bred corn snake which should be arriving on Friday. We haven't given up on wild caught garters, but it's already cold here in Flagstaff and they won't be easy to find. We've learned quite a bit from this and while it was particularly hard on my son, we are looking forward to raising our new, healthy classic corn.