Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Extreme an Extreme? Lately people have been posting awesome looking animals that look extreme to me but don’t label it as such. So what is it about an Extreme that says one is or isn’t an Extreme? Also is Extreme a “gene”, some sites that I visit list an animal as Het for extreme? isn't it just silver or gray coloring?

Any help would be appreciated!!
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

There are basically 4 traits that you have to look for in an hypo extreme honduran.

1) bands are light gray, silver, and sometimes greenish.

2) has ruby red eyes!

3) no black tippings at all. The hypo extreme is part of the hypo gene but it has eliminated completely the black and/or really dark pigmentation anywhere in the body.

4) And because of that complete elimination of black or close to black (like dark gray) pigmentation, the whole body of a hypo extreme honduran glows like neon.

When people take pictures of a hypo extreme, they should take them without flashes and with natural lighting, like not direct sunlight but just natural lighting. The pic below is one of my extremes that I got from Mike Falcon in Sept 2006 and is taken without a flash in natural lighting outdoors (without direct sunlight).

If anything from the above 4 traits is missing, then it really is not an extreme hypo but close to being extreme. Some hondos will be argued to be extreme and some not, and that's where the pricing comes in. The undeniable hypo extreme is more valuable than a questionable hypo extreme.

Hope that helps.

Ray
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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

>>There are basically 4 traits that you have to look for in an hypo extreme honduran.
>>
>>1) bands are light gray, silver, and sometimes greenish.
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>>2) has ruby red eyes!
>>
>>3) no black tippings at all. The hypo extreme is part of the hypo gene but it has eliminated completely the black and/or really dark pigmentation anywhere in the body.
>>
>>4) And because of that complete elimination of black or close to black (like dark gray) pigmentation, the whole body of a hypo extreme honduran glows like neon.
>>
>>When people take pictures of a hypo extreme, they should take them without flashes and with natural lighting, like not direct sunlight but just natural lighting. The pic below is one of my extremes that I got from Mike Falcon in Sept 2006 and is taken without a flash in natural lighting outdoors (without direct sunlight).
>>
>>If anything from the above 4 traits is missing, then it really is not an extreme hypo but close to being extreme. Some hondos will be argued to be extreme and some not, and that's where the pricing comes in. The undeniable hypo extreme is more valuable than a questionable hypo extreme.
>>
>>Hope that helps.
>>
>>Ray
>>.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

Thanks Ray that clears things up a bit, I never noticed the eyes always thought that was just the flash/lighting. I have read that Mike Falcon was the first to express this gene but have not found his site, do you happen to know Mike's website by any chance or does he not have one?
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

Ray pretty much summed up what constitutes an "extreme" from other hypos.
Here is a site that has Mike Falcon's definition of "extreme" I think you'll also find useful.

When you get to the site, scroll down a bit to all the yellow titles and you'll see his definition.

members.toast.net/barrssnakepit/

Here is another "extreme" from Mike's bloodline.

best regards, Doug

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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Jason,

I don't believe that Mike Falcon has a website (at least not that I know of) but you can certainly send him an email if you want more clarification. He's one of those who really knows his hypo extremes pretty well and a nice guy to talk to as well. I have his email address if you want it (just send me a note directly).

And yeah, I can definitely see some confusion out there because there are pics of hypos that people call extremes... and I just scratch my head and shake my head in utter disappointment. Those hypos that are questionably not extremes but better than a normal hypo should be classified as "super" hypo and not extreme hypos.

The link that Doug posted is also a good one to see Mike's comments about an extreme hypo.

Thanks,

Ray
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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

steve Osbourne has for many years had a specific line he calls "super hypo".
If the animal is border line extreme or just a very good "normal hypo" I think the term ultra light hypo is justified. I use this term for animals I produce with one parent being extreme and one not being extreme.The babies are much better than the run of the mill hypo but they aren't as good as a real extreme.
I think the real key with a extreme is there is zero tipping anywere even as adults.
Now, I know that Terry M (Jeff Alloways old group) does produce extremes but they do get tipped out. I will bred a falcon extreme to a Terry M extreme next year and see what gives.

L8r Shannon

LOL!,....Shannon, I was just going to comment on that very same point!....yeah, the term "super hypo" I think would be stepping on Steve Osborne's toes a bit.

I also agree that really nice, not quite "extreme" animals would probably best be called "ultra light" hypos.

Then Lee Abbott has his line called "Ultra Hypo" as well. He said he did that so it wouldn't interfere with, or be confused with Mike's animals, even though he might have even acquired his animals from Mike originally a few generations ago?, I'm not sure.

I'm sure you'll agree, that this could be very confusing to many people, but once they get familiar with some of these differences like many of us have, and it gets explained to people in detail like we have done, it's really pretty straight-forward once folks know these fine details.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Yep, I really think as a whole we are doing a great job keeping things pretty lined up.
The more we can educate people on the different looks and morphs the better.
Shannon

Shannon,

You should start your line on extreme. Like that gorgeous hypo tricolor extreme of yours. What line or origination did he come from? I hope you "replicate" him and I would be very interested in one just like him.

Thanks,
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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

Thanks Ray, I really hope to re-produce him next year.He was produced by Jeff Alloway in a first clutch and the mystery hypo (extreme hybino) that Terry has was in the second clutch.They were from triple hets.
He is also 66% possible het anery and amel so I will be throwing him on a ghost and a snow and a couple others next year.
I have a hypo female that is 100% het anery and amel so if he turns out to be the same then its pearl time.
I also have a ghost male from MGL that is possible het amel and I would like to prove him out next year as well.

Shannon

...too bad this guy doesn't fit the extreme criteria...HA!

Ah, he is special no matter what name he gets

What one of the diagnostic characteristics is he missing anyway????

Vinny

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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

although it is grey and not black.

Call it what you want...if someone likes it, and you agree on a price, then it's a done deal.

-RG

I produce a few like that one every year. They usually have very dark gray heads but lighter gray bandings on their body. I found that their dark bands usually darken up even more as they age. I don't label them as Extremes even though they usually remain very clean hypos as adults.

With regarding to Extremes and tipping, I do have an '06 extreme that does have heavy tipping. Her tipping is gray. She was bred by a hypo x het-hypo/het-anery. The het-female parent is heavily tipped so I'm thinking that's where the tipping came from. In any event, my point is that I don't think the "tipping" aspect is really a qualification on whether an animal is Extreme hypo or not. I think it's more of a funciton of how clean the parents of the animal were to begin with.

just my $.02 worth...
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Paul Weaver
Carolina Herps

Shannon,

First off, great meeting you at the Sacramento Reptile Show last Saturday! Hope you sold tons of milks and kings!

I think that was what you were referring to when you mentioned to me that you want to see what a Falcon extreme and a Terry M extreme (Jeff Alloway's)would produce. That would be interesting to see for sure.

Thanks,

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RAY - "Laziness is nothing more than a habit of resting before getting tired!"

Hi Ray,

Yes, it was great finally meeting you and putting another face to a fellow forum member.

Yes, that is axactly what I had in mind when I mentioned that next year I should find out if they are one in the same.I really think they are different but I am sure they are compatible.

Thats why sometimes I like the "name or term" to stick with a specific line rather than a "look" if that makes since.

I actually hope that the breedings next year shed some light on all this and show us that they are actually two differnt "looks".

Like I said, I am almost positive that they will be compatible like the extreme is with the love/miller/generic line of hypo.

I really think if I see the term extreme they better be the same as the Falcon Animals.

Shannon

Here is a picture of the Mystery Hypo,maybe extreme hybino

yep, I don't think there is even a doubt anymore as to if it is a extreme hybino. Its a extreme hybino and het for anery.

L8r Shannon

>>yep, I don't think there is even a doubt anymore as to if it is a extreme hybino. Its a extreme hybino and het for anery.
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>>L8r Shannon

Shannon, since all prior hybinos have white rings, why do you think this animal, which has rings that are clearly darker than white, is a hybino? It seems odd that "extreme" would add some color/melanin to rings that would be white, on an albino, but reduce color/melanin on those same rings on a snake that is not albino. I thought the thread was headed in the direction of saying that the animal's clearly an extreme...one of the lightest ones ever. Anyway, if not white, why hybino?

Hi Terry,

I had that same question in mind. It's good to see you posting on the forum.

Take care,

Joe Exposito
Thoroughbred Exotics, LLC

Terry, I don't think this animal has white rings at all.I see them (at least on the screen) as the same as my extremes.They look grey/silver to almost green.

As a baby it wasn't even really clear if it was a hypo or amel? remember?
I see both amel and extreme (hypo) at work here don't you?

L8r Shannon

>>Terry, I don't think this animal has white rings at all.I see them (at least on the screen) as the same as my extremes.They look grey/silver to almost green.
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>>As a baby it wasn't even really clear if it was a hypo or amel? remember?
>>I see both amel and extreme (hypo) at work here don't you?
>>
>>L8r Shannon

Hi Shannon, maybe i read your post wrong: I thought you were saying the photo convinced you the snake was a hybino. Which would mean it is an albino, in addition to being a hypo. And can't we agree, as a given, that an albino would have white rings, no matter what else it might be: I mean, an albino (or amel) is lacking all melanin in those rings.

So here (above) you say you don't think it has white rings. What i'm asking is, then why do you think it's a hybino? Don't the darker-than-white rings automatically mean it can't be an amel? And thus can't be a hybino? That's my opinion, and that's why i'm confused. Help me out!

terry

Terry,
sorry for the confusion.LOL...

I think its a extreme hybino for the simple fact that it is clearly a amel but has the dove grey bands instead of white showing its also a extreme.If the extreme gene wasn't being used then you would never know until you test bred it. The extreme gene is a kicker as it shows what would normally be hiddin or masked.

do you think its just a hypo? I would bet the farm that bred to a couple straight amels that all the babies would be amels.Just my opinion.
Shannon

Hey Terry...it was good to see you at Daytona. The weather should be getting good soon for some GOLF!!!

I had a few thoughts about the “extremes hypos” out there; the Hypo gene is obviously very diverse, ranging from a slightly cleaner looking normal snake, to some ultra light hypos. However, some of the "extremes" out there really look different...like the one that Terry M. has for example.

Could some of these "extremes" really be better classified as T+ Amels, giving the snake that very light color?

Let's assume that Terry M.'s "mystery male" is a T+ Amel and it is also Homo_Hypo, then this would be a T+ Hybino(some gray color left in the bands)...which would look completely different than a normal T- Hybino(white bands)...right?

I know this is kinda a stretch...but I think something is very different with Terry M.'s animals (via Jeff A., via you).

I personally think many of the so called "extreme hypos" are really T+ Amels and possibly T+ Hybinos.

This would also explain why the Extreme Pearl (picture below) shows signs of a light grey pigment in the normally white bands.

If my theory is correct, this Extreme Pearl (T+ Amel, Hypo, Anery, and 66% Het T- Amel) should darken slightly when she ages.

Does this theory hold water?

-Rusty

Rusty, you have some real good points and some that should be looked into a bit more.
Now, Some people in the past have thought that the falcon line was just a t albino but I don't agree. They never get any tipping and albinos t- or t still do its just a changed color.
Terry's hypos do get tipping so its interesting to think they could actually be a t but I still don't think so.
Its a huge can of worms to get into and there would really need to be some actual tyrosene (sp?) tests done to know for sure.

I believe that there is more involved than meets the eye for sure. For one thing I remember back in the day when it was hard just to get a hypo let alone a real good one. They had allot of tipping as adults still but were killer as babies. Then the tangerine dream really cleaned it up.
I have a tangerine dream here that is better than some of my hypos (in the amount of tipping) but her bands are jet black.

Then bruce miller of redding reptiles started producing the real high orange very little tipping hypos with red eyes.I still have one of those. Then we started seeing the grey replace the off black or brown bands and then we saw the extremes that were behond grey and some are actually green.

I just think that there could be more than one kind of extreme looking hypo gene out there and yet they are all compatible.

Time will tell and if I find some extra time I will post some pics of my old school hypo that now days people would argue that they aren't even hypo.LOL.....

L8r Shannon

After this post I did a quick search on-line...and found this website:

http://msnusers.com/BallPythons/abreifdiscriptionofsomemorphs.msnw

Take a look at the "Caramel Albino (Tyrosinase +)" and the "Caramel Albino(T+) and Hypomelanistic"...looks like an extreme hypo to me.

After seeing this...I feel even more confident with this crazy theory of mine. I guess only time will tell.

-R

if I'm right on this idea...then Terry M. has two quad hets females... (T+ Amel, T- Amel, Hypo, and Anery).

and that would make that, "mystery male" a Homo T+ Amel and Hypo, Het Anery and T- Amel.

Terry M...what do you think sir?

The pictures below show the mystery male and one of the "quad" hets...the extreme Pearl and a Snow poss. 'normal' Pearl het Extreme (AKA T+ Amel).

-R

With this line that Terry has here I think you could be right. But the only problem is that most of these extremes look like a lot of other ones out there so where does that leave them? They have been breed together and don't reproduce extremes always?
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Jon Wedow
Sharp Dressed Snakes

To prove it a simple trait is take you best extreme or possbile T+ albino and breed to a normal het for nothing whatso ever and make F1 hets. Then breed those to each other and back to the parents. The results will tell you whats up.

Anyone done this?

Best,
Vinny
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“There is a grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed into a few forms or into one; and that whilst this planet has gone on cycling according to the fixed laws of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.” -C. Darwin, 1859

Natural Selection Reptiles

Its a very complex debate and obviously nobody can prove anything just yet.

I agree that all true extremes show amelanistic characteristics. Afterall you can see red in their eyes! But do they breed true when bred together? Not always or even usually from what I have gathered. And how do you explain the ones that pop up in outcrosses? That doesn't help the T amel theory.

The main point that I think needs to be kept in everyones mind when classifying these types of animals is that it that it CANNOT be homozygous for T- amelanism, since it shows melanin! If it is then I will happily be proven wrong.

Until it is seperated from the hypo gene or at least predictably reproduced I will be considering it a variable within the homozygous hypo gene that we know of. Whether that be jet black, black, grey or silver.

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Jon Wedow
Sharp Dressed Snakes

This guys isn't as light at Terry's but somewhere in the middle. Very happy with him thanks Mike!

.

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Jon Wedow
Sharp Dressed Snakes

Guy's this all sounds good ,in theroy and would be great if they prove to be all the above.I just don't want to get to the point where people think that are something they are not.Everyone agrees they are awesome looking animals and am glad I was able to purchase the animals that produced these from Jeff A.We will have to wait and see what happens with test breeding down the road.We know something is going on,just by the look of the adult as a hatchling and his ofspring as a hatchling,.Thanks for all the comments from everone,it all sounds good,and maybe possible.,Jon that is a very nice animal

Thanks Terry. Those definitely do look more like albinos than extremes. Do you have pics of the original parents Jeff used by any chance? I guess the main difference when comparing those to extremes is that they aren't from extremes or even hypos correct? So being a super refined version of a hypo maybe is unlikely. Very cool snakes man!
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Jon Wedow
Sharp Dressed Snakes

Jon,here are the parents,both are triple hets

and now look at him (below).

He's actually darker...hummmmm, I love my theory.

Oh and don't you mean QUAD hets Terry?

If that Extreme Snow or whatever you guys want to call it turn a little darker...then I would consider the theory, proven.

HA!

-RG

>>...The main point that I think needs to be kept in everyones mind when classifying these types of animals is that it that it CANNOT be homozygous for T- amelanism, since it shows melanin!

THANK YOU! That's the stumbling block in my mind to all the other arguments here. I still just don't get it..."it" being the idea that because an amel is a type of hypo too, its rings that would be white aren't. Where's the logic in that? I'm open to an explanation but i haven't heard one yet.

Terry,
so what you are saying is that if its an amel then it has to have white bands?

I think that when the extreme gene (or t or whatever Terry M has)is combined with other genes (i.e. anery, amel etc....) that it will show the grey/silver bands no matter what.Look at the snow that Terry produced this year.If your theory is right then why is the extreme gene visual?
I think its a dominant gene or a layer that doesn't get wiped out so its almost cheating in the morph game as its a marker as being a visual double or triple home when the other line of hypo is used it gets masked by the amel gene.

Look at the extreme ghost that mike produced.I know it doesn't involve amel but it shows that the extreme gene was used and not just the generic line (love/miller etc..)of hypo.

Although maybe compatible I really think that the extreme morph that Terry M has and the extreme of Falcon are two different genes.
I have seen the same thing happen with corns.

The next couple years will be very exciting in the hondo world.

Shannon

Hello Terry D,can you drop me an email ?Terry M
terrysxtreme@aol.com

>>Extreme an Extreme? Lately people have been posting awesome looking animals that look extreme to me but don’t label it as such. So what is it about an Extreme that says one is or isn’t an Extreme? Also is Extreme a “gene”, some sites that I visit list an animal as Het for extreme? isn't it just silver or gray coloring?
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>>Any help would be appreciated!!
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>>Jason A.
>>"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

Thanks for the input everyone, I have learned allot from people on this site as well as some websites. While the information is out there it would be nice if a central website/data base existed that contains every morph for every snake and how it came to be with pictures, forward thinking but it would be nice. I personally have my own personal reference document collected from post like this and various websites that helps me quickly identify the characteristics of a certain morph and understand how the morph came to be. Extreme was one that eluded me I could never find or make an educated guess as to why a hondo was extreme until now, I knew it had allot to do with coloring but never noticed the eyes or no tipping in adults.

And wow the extreme tri colors are one of my favs..

Thanks again everyone!!
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Jason A.
"Long time Herper, first year Breeder `07."

Excuse me while I go get my boots. Randy W.

One snake does not a morph make. I keep seeing a picture of ONE snake ( a baby at that )over and over again and alot of discussion on wether or not it is a "PEARL". I want to see that snake in a year and its offspring 2 years after that and then see what you have and save all the BS over hypotheticals.

This has always been a fun and interesting hobby for me but some of you "know it alls" take yourselves a little to seriously

Don't Worry.............Be Happy

Scott Sweeney
Sweeney's Serpents

PS....I typed this with my boots on............

Ok guys, I think this is about enough about the extremes and pearl.Everyone has their own theroy about these and that is fine.I just don't want people to get the idea that they are something they are not.Don't get me wrong I respect everyones theroy ,but that is just what it is, until they get proven out.Rusty,Shannon, Terry D,and others have been doing this along time and they all know genetics well.Terry D even helped me with Gouldian Finch genetics 20 years ago.So that being said ,lets keep it as a mystery hypo ,until I prove him out next spring.I will be breeding him to an albino and a hypo.As far as the extreme snow (pearl} as Scott says we will wait and see how she changes as she grows,she for sure has something going on and I myself can't wait for her to grow up.So let enjoy our animals as they are .take care
Terry Maheuron
terrysxtreme@aol.com

Look Man,
its pretty simple and not very far fetched.
We know its a snow right? unless you don't think so. and it is showing the extreme (or whatever YOU want to call it)hypo gene so I don't see how its not a pearl (triple homo).

I guess I am missing something.I don't think I was stretching when I first saw it and called it as it is.It would be different if it wasn't showing the extreme bands.

L8r Shannon the (know it all).