Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have had Maynard since he was born. He is not about a year and a half and prob 2 ft long. He has always been a ready eater, taking down small rats recently. I was on a schedule of 3 small rats fed to him every saturday. The rats were roughly the width of his jaws. He would kill them, then swallow them, sometimes having problems if they were a little too big, but with proper small rats, he would take them down. Recently I had 3 appropriate size rats that I knew he could take down. He was ready for the first and killed it. When he went to eat it, he gave up half way, although I have seen him take the same size before. I provided the second rat and he killed and ate it. The third was not touched and it looked like he had no interest. Its been a week and a half and I provide the rat every so often, with no interest. I don't think he is sick, he is always out exploring and trying to escape. He likes to dip in his water and might be at the start of a shed. I have him in a 50 gallon tall tank. He has a 160 watt Powersun Heat + UVB bulb that he loves. I live in California so during the day it is hot and at night it cools off. I have a heat pad for him uundr the hot side. He has never refused a meal if not eating before. He does look kind of wide. Might he be overweight? Do they refuse food if too fat? Is 3 per week too much? Do savs have fasting times? I haven't noticed one yet with him. I also have a IR heat bulb for night time, should I use it in coordination with the mat? ANy help would be appreciated.

You have 160 watt bulb and an undertank heater for a 50 gallon tank? How do you know he "loves" this particular bulb? You are also in California where it is never cold. When I was in Cali I used two 45 watt flood bulbs to provide a basking spot of 140 degrees in a cage at least double that size. I would advise trying to use lower wattage bulbs to achieve your desired temps instead of one humongous hot humidity sucker. Some people will recommend leaving the lights on at night if your monitor has a completely dark place it can go to, however I turn my off. There is no need for that heat bulb.

They refuse to eat if they are stressed out, or in poor conditions/health. You are probably cooking that little guy. Does the tank have a screen top? If so, cover it with something to keep in the humidity. I would guess he is dehydrated. You should read many of the posts here because your setup most likely needs some serious adjusting. Would you like to provide some more details so we can better evaluate the situation? Temps? Humidity? Setup?
Best of luck.

I am no where near an expert, but man, that setup is very very poor, to say the least.

Just from the little info you provided, it is...

too hot
too small
too dry

In a nutshell:

Provide 140* basking via one 45 watt halogen flood lamp. Cover the top with something solid, so humidity will not escape, and last but not least, get ready to build a larger cage, like NOW!!!!

Also feed him mice. Small rats are too big for him now. Especially 3 at a time, ESPECIALLY LIVE ONES!!!!!!!!!! If it has trouble eating, taking things down being a little too big, especially after he has to kill them first, means one thing...
Feed him something smaller!!! Adult mice would be fine!!

sorry cant edit posts...

Gorge feeding once a week for a sub adult animal is not healthy at all. He should eat every day, thats why he is looking fat, because he is storing fat!!!!

You did better than most people on giving us info on your sav, setup, and problem, but we still need a lil' bit more.

Before I start askin' questions I want to say that based on what you've told us already, I don't think it's panic time, yet, but it is time for action.

My first question is: (1) Do you know for sure it's a male?

(2) What is the surface temperature of it's basking site?

I'm also interested in the Qs "holygouda" asked you; Temps? Humidity? Setup?

Both, "holygouda" & "newstorm" made good points you should look into. I don't mean that as if I'm more experienced than them, I'm not, I'm just making sure you don't overlook these things.

What I see here is that your husbandry has gotten your sav this far (1 1/2yrs & 2ft long), although it's growth rate is a little low. So there's definitely something you've been doing, or not doing, that needs to be changed. Could it be the reason for the problem you're having now? I don't know, you'll have to sort that out and hopefully we can help you do that.

I'm not worried about it starving to death anytime soon, based on your description of it. I feel a pudgy 2ft sav can go a few months without food. BUT, we need to figure out WHY it's not eating.

It could be intimidated by the size of the rats. Especially since it gave up on one during last feeding, even though it ate another.

Rats, at one stage of their life, are the same size as mice, but it's hard to find 'em in pet stores that size. I suggest trying a single mouse & see what kind of response you get from it. If the sav eats it, wait a few days & get 2 for it's next meal. For a 2ft sav, 2 - 3 mice would be better than 1 sm rat.

I also feel the same way as "newstorm" about feeding 3 sm rats once a week. I feel that a couple of mice spaced out over a few days during each week would be better.

Yeah, feeding it every day may be ideal but unfortunately most of us don't have ideal cage conditions that allow our monitors to burn off the calories. (break out the treadmill)

One other question: Have there been any recent changes in it's setup, such as location, new bulb or heat source, room temperature fluctuations more than normal, etc...?

I've read about some mercury vapor UVB bulbs causing eye problems in bearded dragons in close range of the bulbs. I don't know if it would have any effect on your sav or not but it's something you might want to look into, keep an eye on.

Please take your time & answer each question that you've been asked by others, and myself, so we can help you better.

Hang in there!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

something else not mentioned yet is what you are feeding it. while some juvenile rats may be the same size as a mouse the have more mass than a mouse making a much more concentrated form of nutrition than a mouse (something like the differnce between beef and chicken in people-somewhat.). Further more there have been several studies (Daniel Bennets book immediately comes to mind, but there are others.) indicating that savs primarily eat invertabrates (Millipedes etc.) in the wild. That in mind I would back down on the Rats and vary his diet more. I feed crickets and roaches to my savs in addition to mice rats and soft-furred rats. I have found that by varying savs diet like this they tend to do better and are less prone to obesity. Smaller rodents and more frequent feedings will help as well. try alternating bugs and rodents for different feedings. BTW you would be surprised at how very large monitors that you would never expect to take bugs will go for them.

Thank you all for your responses. Here is some more information. I have his basking at 110-125. warm side prob reaches 95 during the day with the cool at 80-85. At night recently, it gets as cold outside as 55-60, that is why I use the heat mat. My room gets probably close to that. I don't use any other heat source at night, but have a IR heat bulb I could use. His humidity stay around 65-70% with biweekly soaking of his substrate and a water bowl he soaks in frequently. I think the Powersun does a good job, it might dehydrate tho.

Some things I have thought about. His basking 'perch' is a piece of grapewood that is angled to the corner of the cage. He can get pretty close to the bulb (2 inches), but cant touch the bulb as I have it raised above the screen top. He has a patch on his back where the top layer of scales are looking like a shed, but not sure if he is shedding, could he have burned himself? I will be putting plastic wrap over the top of the screen. I had that for my ball python, but havent done it with my monitor. I am looking into a new cage as well. A BIG One by Cages by Design (http://www.cagesbydesign.com/cages/specials_reptile.asp). The ones I am looking at are the R4 (48x72x36) or R13 (24x96x24). I prefer the taller one, but would that be dangerous having the possibility of him falling off a ledge? Are they good climbers like iguanas?

I am definitely going back to large mice and will do every other day. I asked my pet store guy about roaches, but he didnt have any. I prefer them over crickets as the cage is in my room and I can't stand crickets chirping all night. I also read about a ground turkey, raw egg and calcium supplement mixture, any experience with that?

Also, hides. He used to burrow under a flat piece of bark I had for him, but he doenst any more. Should I try somethign else? ARe hides necessary (yes!)

Thanks again for your help.

Jeff,
I would say that having a Savannah monitor soak in his water dish is a sign of dehydration. I still think that bulb is way too much. Use two smaller ones(45w), therefore you won't have to worry about him burning himself. It will also offer a "cooler" cool side of the cage. You want your monitor to be able to cool of if he is too hot. Could be a reason he is soaking in his dish too? Try to get the cool side to the low-mid 70's and see what happens. I think the bulb is making everything hot instead of an isolated spot. Try to work on a hot basking spot and the rest of the cage in the 70's and 80's.

I wouldn't really recommend either of those cages, as it does not appear they allow for deep substrate. Build your own. You can build it how to want, and for much cheaper.

I have never seen an iguana with anywhere near the climbing ability of my monitors.

As for feeding, try to stick to whole prey items. Its full nutrition wrapped up into a neat little package. Mice, rats, chicks, quail...etc. Insects are good too, I dust any insects that I feed.

Hopefully he has more places to hide than a flat piece of bark.

-Jeff

First Order of business - get the temps straight. In the meanwhile, I am shopping for a 6'W x 3'L x 2'D metal horse trough to put Maynard in so he can get so room to move. I will then build around it to make it presentable whenever possible. can I get some help with lighting for that size trough initially? 2 45W flood lamps? One question...do halogen flood lamps provide heat and UVB light? That is why I got the Powersun light, i was unclear of other types...

My monitors do fine without UVB. I don't really know of anyone who uses it.

-Dean

Good call, get the temps straight.

If 2 45w floods will do the trick, then use that. If you have to add another or take one away to get the temps you want, then do what you need to do. Just make sure you get flood lights without the clear-star-looking center in the middle of them. That concentrated beam of light will burn your monitor. Halogen floods don't provide UVB but I'm not convinced its necessary. I have had no problems yet with not using UVB on my monitors or my Tegu's. I think its more of an issue with feeding an inadequate diet than anything else.

I just wanted to say my thoughts and experience on UVB is the same as the others; it's not needed. I believe FR (Frank Retes) has pretty well proven this with his countless years of raising monitors without it. (How many years now Frank? 20 or so?)

I've kept a few monitors for over a year without the first UVB ray, and no noticeable problems. I've got a bearded dragon I've had since hatching and it's now just over a year old; there again, it's never had UVB.

Take care!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American

Sounds good to me. I'll use 50W halogens from now on. I just wanted to run my cage idea by you guys. 3 sections, base, cage and hood. Base is a 6'long x 3'Wide x 2'deep metal round end stock tank framed and put on casters. This has 2 feet of top soil/sand/vermiculite mixture at a 50/25/25 ratio. The middle part is the cage that is 6'long x 3'wide x 4' tall. Framed in wood with acrylic front sliding door and sides and laminate back. On top of that is a hood that is 6' long x 3' wide x 1' tall to house the lighting. This will be framed in wood with laminate panels and a wire grating for the bottom.

Questions include:
-What kind of lighting and heating setup should I implement?
-4ft too tall for monitor? I plan on putting ledges and branches in there for him

Hi Jeff!
Before I forget, if I were you I'd start a new thread because this one is so far down the list a lot of people won't see it.

I like the idea of framing a stock tank & putting casters on it. I would still put some kind of protection between the wood frame & tank.

If your sav is a female the 6ft tank would probably do, but if it's a male that gets to be 4 1/2 - 5ft long, I'd be concerned if it was big enough when your sav is full grown. The cage I'm building is only a 6(L) x 4(W) but it's a temporary cage that I plan on modifying later for something else. If you start a new thread you might want to ask if people think that's a good size or not.

The middle part is kinda high at 4ft tall but you could make it work with additional levels like you mentioned. My main concern is housing all lights within the hood. Most people suspend the basking lights from the ceiling to where they're usually less than 2ft from the substrate surface. Take a look at "newstorm's" cage in the 2nd pic of this post: forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1402762,1403426 I'd be concerned about whether you'd be able to keep the ambient temperature high enough with all lights in the hood.

I don't like the idea of acrylic doors/windows because they get scratched up too easy.

Keep in mind that this is just my personal opinion and we all have different ideas and tastes. I see cages every now & then with bare plywood interior walls. I imagine they don't last very long but it's the way some people do things. It's up to your skills and how much money & time you can put into it.

Catch ya later!
HH
-----
Due to political correctness run amuck,
this ol' hillbilly is now referred to as an:
Appalachian American