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Just the other day I was calling this girl a "lookatee" because I have no info on her other than, she's an okeetee.On second thought,I guess she can be considered an okeetee,she just doesn't have the thick borders of my Abbotts and Loves. Jeff

call that beauty anything OTHER than an "Okeetee"corn!, just because it doesn't have ultra wide black borders, as many of Abbott's, Love's might etc..etc...and might not be from the "gun club area)it is still most CERTAINLY an "Okeetee" phase animal!

That thing is VERY richly colored, and well defined!....and is hard to beat in my opinion!!....very nice!

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

Just so you know...that's exactly what the term "Lookatee" refers to: An animal that has all of the brilliant coloring and patterning of what we call an Okeetee, while not having the documented ancestry that locale breeders find significant.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

looks like a bloodred okee even.....

Nice snake.........

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.........2.3 yellowbelly.....one normal and a really cool black back /heavy patterned.......

.....today.......BEE time........? how many?.....(hope for 6.)......aaaahahahaa.....!
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That could cause you to suggest such? I have bred bloodreds for a number of years now, and that snake bears absolutely no marks I would consider constituent to episkiastism.

Care to share your insights?
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

it looks just like bloodred okees I used to have?....

it has orange belly and most of my real okeetees had white and black checkered bellies?..

......just my opinion and all.....it's actually a cornsnakes that sells for $15 as a baby.......so it don't matter...

next year as a matter of fact I am not even wasting my time labeling ,numbering or caring what corns are what...they are all getting thrown into boxes deli-cups ,and sold as "corns".....same difference.......they aren't selling here for squat at shows ......(time to really downsize and get rid of all ultracraps)......

anyways......

.....does it not look too orange to you?......

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as to be expected........
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finally done hatching.........wheee......
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I may be missing something but isn't unpatterned belly scales one of the primary markers for bloodred(as well as certain other morphs)?

While I know both bloodred and okeetee have a tendency towards orange/red colored bellyscales wouldn't the bloodred morph(or diffuse or whatever you wanna call it) eliminate any of the normal phase black markings on the belly?

I know that none of my Bloods have any belly pattern/markings at all but they are also all blizzard or amel in addition and I am far from an expert.

Sean.

Yes, I'm aware of how that cute "jingle" got started.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it wasn't a "jingle," cute or otherwise, at its inception.

The problem was that there are locality breeders who were striving for locality pure animals in their efforts. While that is not a particular concern of mine, I fully support the rights of those locality breeders to strive for their own goals within this hobby.

However, with everyone using a locality name to describe anything from the plainest normal corn seen on earth, to the most beautifully colored and marked animal ever seen, to the animal actually taken from the okeetee hunt club, something needed to be done to make some sort of distinction between the animals being offered.

"Lookatee" was one option, and I believe it caught on to one degree or another, because it rang true with those who heard it: An animal that looked like what we see in our mind's eye when we consider the classic "okeetee," irrespective to its locality origins. Another option was to call the locality corns "Hunt Club" corns, and many thought that would be fine too, but the locality people did wonder why they had to change their usage of the name, when it was the "lookatee" people, who had been using the term (that is, "okeetee" incorrectly all of these years.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

I use the term "lookatee" all the time.Miami corn is another one in my opinion that is often over used.The corns local to my area resemble miamis but,they aren't.It's kinda like the red tailed boa thing.How many "common" boas have you seen in a pet shop? Jeff

Again,... I've been aware of all these points you mentioned around all this controversy for many many years, and I respectfully appreciate you're thread regarding it.

If only there were more people that understood these differences, we wouldn't have to worry about it in the first place!LOL

I too have posted about this very topic in great detail, so I really do know what you mean.

best regards, ~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

>>I don't mean to be disrespectful, but it wasn't a "jingle," cute or otherwise, at its inception.
>>
>>The problem was that there are locality breeders who were striving for locality pure animals in their efforts. While that is not a particular concern of mine, I fully support the rights of those locality breeders to strive for their own goals within this hobby.
>>
>>However, with everyone using a locality name to describe anything from the plainest normal corn seen on earth, to the most beautifully colored and marked animal ever seen, to the animal actually taken from the okeetee hunt club, something needed to be done to make some sort of distinction between the animals being offered.
>>
>>"Lookatee" was one option, and I believe it caught on to one degree or another, because it rang true with those who heard it: An animal that looked like what we see in our mind's eye when we consider the classic "okeetee," irrespective to its locality origins. Another option was to call the locality corns "Hunt Club" corns, and many thought that would be fine too, but the locality people did wonder why they had to change their usage of the name, when it was the "lookatee" people, who had been using the term (that is, "okeetee" incorrectly all of these years.
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I just always see a problem with "locale specific" animals.
A generalization is fine, like an Alabama, Missouri, Tennessee black rat or corn or whatever but to actually try to tie it down to a county or a road or hunt club can be problematic.
As of yet I have not seen a consensus of "okeetee locale" people as to just what the true "okeetee" border is.
You touched on the subject but some say the hunt club some say Jasper county.
Which is it?
The true border would obviously be the hunt club, hence the name but I have seen disagreements on that.
another problem with any "true locale" snake is just that, the border.
A snake born out side the border with no ancestry actually connected to the "hunt club" can cross into the border one day and get caught the next and bam you have an "okeetee"....WRONG
Then you have one that has several generations in the hunt club, crosses the border the other way, gets caught out side the "zone" and bam you have a normal...WRONG

it's just too arbitrary
oh well
as of now all of mine supposedly have ancestry tied to the hunt club and most don't look much better then a nice normal.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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Half-siblings from parents collected within the Hunt Club borders, a la John Albrecht. Nice looking snakes (my opinion of course ) but definitely not the quintessential "Okeetee's"

I say they decide on a border and we put up a 15' cement wall all around the border.... That will solve it
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-David Harrison-
.1 Snow Corn "Hope"
1. Striped Anery Corn "V" or "5".....Has two names
1. Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Chunk" (Goonies)
.1 Orange Albino Black Ratsnake "Peaches"
.1 Ball Python "Rocky Ballboa" (Didn't name her!)
0.0.1 Crested Gecko "The Crested Gecko"

"Have you ever tried simply turning off the T.V., sitting down with your kids... and hitting them?"

I didn't say I agreed with their methodology. In fact, I agree with you that locality is often too arbitrary a consideration to use in a breeding project.

I just also believe that those who do see such a distinction ought to be able to use the name they historically have utilized without it being abducted by others not concerned with the locality at all. Especially since the name itself is obviously one of a locality-based nature.

Many people don't see all of the fuss about producing hybrids and then reintroducing the offspring back into the common corn genepool. Others are vehemently against. On which side do we err? On the side looking for a distinction, or on the side where no distinction is necessary?
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742

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>>I just also believe that those who do see such a distinction ought to be able to use the name they historically have utilized without it being abducted by others not concerned with the locality at all. Especially since the name itself is obviously one of a locality-based nature.
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I agree..
That is a good point but unfortunately the name has already expanded to incompass all okeetees and lookatees and just about anything with a red saddle and a black border....and any amel with a white border.
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Corn snakes and rat snakes..No one can have just one.
"Resistance is futile"
Jimmy Johnson
(Draybar)
Draybars Snakes

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I think the term "lookatee" is rediculous. The name Okeetee has been used by all the people in the industry for DECADES to represent a certain look. The name is very well established; when people hear that name, they have a very clear mind-picture of what the snake should look like.

There are "Okeetees" and there are "locality Okeetees"....why change the names?

I think people in the hobby come up with way too many names for stuff...

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Mike Heinrich,
708-428-5616
Mike@amazontreeboa.org
http://www.amazontreeboa.org

Of all the "names" being used out there, "lookatee" repulses me the most. I detest it. Thank you for posting this.
South Mountain Reptiles

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Arlon Delorge
Classic Constrictors

I don't really disagree with you on this.

When I first used the term "lookatee" for a snake I was trying to sell, it was only out of respect for the concerns of some locality breeders that were expressing their thoughts at the time, and there was no other term out there to use, without having to go through the whole process all over again.

It stuck somewhat...for better or worse.

Now, the ONLY reason I even got involved in all of this, is because someone used the term "lookatee" to describe his OWN snake, and then someone came along and suggested that he shouldn't.

Sorry...but I think that was the ridiculous part of all of this.
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Darin Chappell
Hillbilly Herps
PO Box 254
Rogersville, MO 65742