Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I AM REWRITING THIS POST. MODERATERS, I HAD NO BAD INTENTIONS WITH THIS, AND ONLY WANTED OPINIONS AND MAYBE SOME IDEAS FOR ACTION.

Responders, if you respondeed to this before, it would be awesome if you can say what you wanted to say again; everything was deleted before I got to read any feedback. Please try to be a little more... umm... PC about your responses. I value your opinions and thoughts and DO want to read them. If you have something to say that shouldn't be posted on here, feel free to e-mail me directly. (chelsealynn52688@hotmail.com)

If you are reading this for the first time, I would love your thoughts as well!

After all the concern and trouble I had with an unnamed breeder, my advertised "2005 0.1 Breeder Pastel Female" arrive on my doorstep (much to my doubt) yesterday afternon.

THOUGHT AND OPINIONS ABOUT HER NEEDED.
GOOD OR BAD!!! APPRECIATE IT SO MUCH!!

The breeder told me she had 3 breeder sized pastel females... Maybe I got one that was different fromt he picture. After scanning her thoroughly, I think it could be possible to be the same snake in the picture, depending on the angle she was shot. Though, I am not 100% certain.

She was advertised to have a bad attitude, which I have not experienced yet. She seems to have a pretty chill disposition.

However, she was ALSO advertised to be just shy of a thousand grams. These are the pictures we took...
Empty Belly:

Full Belly:

I got her for a below usual/average market price, so I'm not really sure what to do (or if I have a right to complain). At the same time, I would not have payed money for her if she wasn't the "Breeder" she was advertised his. I don't know if the trouble I would recieve from her would be worth it...

These are other pictures of her we took yesterday. Advice on what to do, as well as opinions on her overall looks, appreciated. Again don't hesistate to e-mail me. If you made it this far in the post, Thank you so much.

Our pics from yesterday:

Her advertised photo:

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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

"However, she was ALSO advertised to be just shy of a thousand grams. These are the pictures we took...

After eating Large Mouse:

I got her for a below usual/average market price, so I'm not really sure what to do (or if I have a right to complain). At the same time, I would not have payed money for her if she wasn't the "Breeder" she was advertised his. I don't know if the trouble I would recieve from her would be worth it... "
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

looks like a dark pastel, it doesnt look like the one advertised but oh well.

looks like a good deal to me
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jake barney

my addiction:
1.1 ball pythons
0.2.1 corns
1.0 cal king
0.0.1 wc garter

100% impossible that the snake you received and the one advertised were not the same animal. Some disucssion was that you could not tell if the head or tail is at the top of the advertising pic tucked under the body. It is the head, because the scales point back. I have looked at several of the distinctly marked areas on the advertised snake and the snake you received. They are no where near the same. Plus, I don't think full belly on an animal that size is going to make that big of a difference in weight. I might be wrong, but just don't think so. If the seller will not respond to you, do what I did when someone screwed me. I drove 500 miles (9 hours) and showed up on his doorstep. He was so scared that he called the cops on me. I still don't have the $700 or my mojave back, but I guarantee that he never wants to see me again for fear of the consequences. I bet your seller would react the same way.
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Happy Herping,
Jody Barnes
Royal Kreationz

1.0 albino
3.4 het albino
1.0 het caramel
0.2 poss het caramel
1.0 het pied
0.1 poss het. pied
0.4 normals (beautiful pastel sibs)

If I were that dude I'd need a good change of underpants. I don't think that guy got what he bargained for. Am I right in remembering that at one point you were a cop? I got scammed by a lady too, I didn't lose money but I was trying to get her address so I could do the same thing you did. You might lose time and gas money but at least you get to scare the s**t out of them.
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0.1 WC Girlfriend-Kendra(very fiesty!)
1.1 Blonde pastel bp's
1.1 Lemon poss. het ghost pastel bp's
1.1 Het albino bp's
1.6 Normal bp's
1.0 BRB
0.1 Western Hognose
1.1 Cornsnakes
1.0 Gopher snake

don't drive 500 miles for nothing???

......better to try and sue them?....from your own home?.....

(wife says call judge Judy)...

better to get the snake while you were there?

(take phone from him BEFORE he calls a cop?)..LOL

really sucks........
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as to be expected........
.............
finally done hatching.........wheee......
.

.
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Morph Evolutions
www.morphevolutions.com

actually I was trying just a lttle to be funny.......

and it really sucks that he didn't get his snake or cash......

if you (anyone) actually is going to drive and take up 9 hours each way to get a snake......make sure it's worth it....and if you put that much effort into it..go ahead and beat th crap out of them and take the snake.......you will be arrested and will be put into jail for aggravated assault and stalking....so be prepaired.........ot isn't worth 700$ for that

.....this buissness sucks....people suck......people always steal and rip others off.......sad

I sell for less and help people all the time and still can't sell squat or catch a break.....oh well......time to downsize again bigtime.....

........sue them........use credit cards and PayPal......keep all written and email transactions........print them out.......

and get the money first...........

.......unforunatly the other post he had was deleted.......
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ONE .........wheee......
.

that is notthe same snake....I looked at the pictures side by side and when you do that you can tell the defining markers are nowhere near the same...I would try for a refund...if she was that big a short time ago I would check her out for internal parasites...

It does not appear to be the same snake to me. Honestly though, a snake that is just under 1000g full could very easily weigh 880g after defecating. IMO, it would not be worth it to send back a snake over less than 100g. If she is a good eater she may still be able to breed later in the season. I would definitely sex her though just in case since it seems like you were not sent the correct snake.
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John Vandegrift

Send her to me. I will not complain about her. She is to small to bred this season she could of bred last season and lost a lot of weight. It is definatly the same snake as the one pictured. I think the other owner weighed her with and meal in her and she pooped before she was sent out and that is the difference. in weight.
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Thanks and Take Care
Thomas Jones
Thomas@rockinreptiles.com

... a large mouse. I know its too small a meal from her, but the pic wasn't after defecating or on any empty stomach.

And I'm not complaining about her; I think she's pretty as well. And its just that... I wouldn't have bought her if I knew she was well below 1000grams; I wouldn't have spent my money on her if she wouldn't be ready for this season... it's why I got her, you know?

I doubt she would have bread last season, she's supposed to be a 2005 hatch.

I don't know.
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

It doesn't matter if you got the deal of a lifetime, you still have a right to be upset over recieving the wrong snake. Not only did you recieve a snake that is different than the one in the ad, but the snake you recieved looks unhealthy. I personally would not find this type of transaction acceptable. Good luck with what ever descision you come to on this matter, and I hope in the end you are treated fairly.
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www.arbogastpythons.com

at basically 900g if she goes on a good feeding binge, she will easily be large enough to breed this season depending on when you start breeding. One female we had go for us for the 06/07 season was 750g at the start of november and by april she was just over 1400 and she gave us 5 good eggs (4 pastels 1 normal). I know we have alot of those 950g females now that will be breeding for us in about 4 months.
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Josh & Krysty Hutto
J&K Reptiles

Various Ball Pythons:::

1.0 striped vanilla
1.0 spider
1.2 Citrus Ghost and hets
1.2 Albino and hets
2.3 het Pied
0.6 50% poss het pied
1.1 Pastel (male has additional gene going on with him)
a bunch of normal female breeders
a bunch of normal female holdbacks and several rescued normal males

0.1 columbian boa, she's a feeding monster, controls my
over production of rats, lol
0.1 brazilian rainbow boa, another rat eating monster
1.1 corns

a BAD dog is MADE not bred, support the American Pit Bull Terrier as the greatest breed of dogs on Earth!!!!!

That is encouraging. She seems to be a good eater - I mean, I got her yesterday and she ate today without hesitation.
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

We sexed her, and she is a gril. But the picture was taken after eating a large mouse; not after defecation or on an empty stomach.

And to what Jody said, we were >thisclose< to driving to Ohio from New Jersey when we became afraid we wouldn't recieve the snake, LoL.
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

I personally would'nt be happy with the transaction...the snake in the ad picture looked pretty solid...so I doubt they stuffed her with tons of food to make her the advertised weight....but ultimantly its your call.

I look and look at the pic in the tub as advertised and I look at the top shot by the foot........

I cannot see they are the same......

10 and 880 are not that close...

I don't know what you paid....and people ask waaaaay too much for pastels after they grow a little.

theory.......female pastels ....$200.....last year???.....let's say 400......feed it 50$ for the year......and you get 400 plus 100 even........500.....go and say 700???........

.......some people ask 1200 and more after a year......some people ask less.....

like the female spider with the screaming pattern I got on trade this year.....I figured $600 albino baby for the 600 year old spider........but I also saw same sized female spider for $3000 on another guy's table......I figure I did good......she eat well like he said...

so depending on what you paid....you do the math if you got reamed or not????

good luck.........
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as to be expected........
.............
finally done hatching.........wheee......
.

From what I could tell, it is the same snake as advertised. The markings look the same. It does look as if they weighed her on a full stomach. She is nice looking, but will most likely not breed for you this year, but could. Put her on a good feeding schedule, for a while, and hope for the best. Good luck, and hope this helps.

It's quite possible it's the smae snake as advertised. Some of the blushing and pattern looks the same but due to the bad position in the scale, it's tough to tell with 1005 certainty.

I would be ticked. There is NO way that snake weighed what the ad showed even if she had a full belly. That looks like the seller never tared the scale and put her in after eating a large meal.

I would demand an explanation. She probably won't be up to weight this season so the seller should offer some kind of compensation since you bought this girl to breed and she won't be able to.

I know how frustrating it is getting an animal in less than the advertised weight. I bought a proven female that was supposed to be over 3000 grams. She was actually 2700 grams. That's a 10% difference but she was breedable size like I wanted so I didn't ask for any compensation. She was at a size that was able to be bred after QT.

In your case, I would ask for a refund of at least what you paid for shipping.

Good luck.

n/p
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

Frank said the same thing--- that the scale was never tarred.
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

This business is all about reputation. If the seller doesn't make it right then ultimately the word will get out there and it will come back to hurt them. I ordered an '06 Axanthic and a '07 Het Axanthic from Brian at BHB. The '06 Axanthic was 100 grams less than he originally thought so he upgraded the Het Axanthic to a HUGE '06 Het Axanthic. Now that is customer service!
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Ryan Sherman
Scottsdale, Arizona

It is close enough to the same snake... as long as it's a female.... you got one with a better temprament... it looks like it may be close to 1000g... depending on the size of your foot.

I think it's not that big of a deal...
But that's just what i think

You pay for a certain animal and you BETTER get that animal.
No "close enough" crap.

I do not take well to dishonest snake deals. If you say something, you better do it. I don't know what ever happened to a hand shake a keeping your word, but I don't accept anything less than that. Anyone else who is willing to accept anything less than that is enabling people to eget away with it. It is bad for the hobby.
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Happy Herping,
Jody Barnes
Royal Kreationz

1.0 albino
3.4 het albino
1.0 het caramel
0.2 poss het caramel
1.0 het pied
0.1 poss het. pied
0.4 normals (beautiful pastel sibs)

you make me feel less crappy, or like I'm not wrong, thanks
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

first, id is easy. the one on the scale has one gold band crossing the spine, the one you got has three. now look at what you do have, a very nice female pastel, live and hungry. give her a 220 gram rat and she weighs 1100. would i be upset at the seller? sure, but i wouldn't go crazy. lots of worse things can happen. cross the seller off your list forever if they don't sweeten the deal a little, but she's beautiful. feed her up and she could easily breed this year. other than getting your feelings hurt, you're ok here. i hate it when anything gets misrepresented, but there's no big downside here. she looks like a very nice snake. best of luck, kurt d.

This seller can keep selling "close enough" snakes to other people.

i'm not making excuses for anybody. i wouldn't ship that snake back [the bird in the hand thing] i would try to get some consideration from the seller, but there is a lot more that could go wrong trying to get satisfaction here. is the other snake nicer? the weight thing is nothing, 1 large rat. perfect deal? maybe not, but trust me, these types of deals can go very bad, there's no spilled blood here. if the seller misrepresents things, word will get around. you can help spread it. just don't get yourself arrested and don't throw good money after bad. that's a nice female pastel, feed her. breed her, it'll turn out allright. kd

Yeah, I see the beautiful part. I see the no spilled blood part.; at least I got a snake, but the only thing I really am thinking about is... well, I'm not the richest person. Putting out money, even if it isn't quite four-digits... well, it was just a big sacrifice, you know??
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

She's a beautiful snake. I'm not questioning that at all, at least not anymore. :-/ I know I did win a little in having a nicer snake, but I love my cranky snakes just as much as I love my affectionate-must-be-close snakes.
---However, the response below... let me know if what she says IS or IS NOT possible. Is it possible to loose that much weight??? I really owe all of you... thanks so much for reading all this nonsense...

---------------------------------------------------------

SENT MESSAGE TO BREEDER:
Sorry, I would have e-mailed you sooner, but our internet wouldn't connect. The Comcast guy came by this morning; this was the soonest I got back to you. I received her yesterday at 1:00pm. She is in excellent condition, no harm done. I have not fooled with her too much (do not want to stress her out more from her travels), but she does not seem to have the bad attitude you described.

However, there is one serious problem. She ate a large mouse for about an hour ago. The picture link below is the picture I took right afterwards. Any comments towards this???? She is not the 'Breeder' you advertised -- At all. I would not have purchased her if she were below 1000grams. Is it possible you sent me wrong/different pastel???

Thanks,
Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
and Frank M. Wood
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BREEDER RESPONSE:
It slowed down on feedings around the middle to the end of the month. I had many pastel breeders listed on reptileauctions. Just like my albinos I had a picture of one for all, that's how I usually post when I have multiple animals of the same morph.

Usually just testy because of the time of year. Many of my females get cranky around breeding season, especially all my 3600 gramers. If she is complacent now then good but once she settles in her new drawer watch out. In spring they all settle down to their usual sweet selves : )

As for the weight, when I weighed all of them (10 total) all were at least 1000 with one being 989 grams. The auction had been up for some so weight could have been lost within that time frame. There is a difference between an animal having to grow to 1000grams as apposed to an animal who was already 1000 and just needs to regain some weight. I have also had females give viable clutches weighing in at just under 1000grams and they were overweight.

It is definitely a rat feeder but during this time they can get picky or not eat, I try not to give in an throw in a mouse because I don't think mice are as good as prey items, just my two cents. So during winter you can give them whatever they like but afterward I would try to keep it on frozen rats.

Last but not least it didn't eat for certain when you sent payment via paypal because I thought we would be shipping sooner than we did, but with the delay of funds clearing and the missed ship date that also added to the laps in feedings(note from ill be yoursoldier: comlications led from being shipped, not on a wednesday, but the following week, on thrusday). So I am very confident in my animal and truly believe if you continue to offer food it will keep disappearing LOL.

Just keep in touch, I love to add another contact or even a chat buddy. I don't want you to think its over just because you already received the animal.
Thanks again
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

So thats my question: after reading the response form the breeder above, is it possible for her to loose that much weight so quickly?? And will she be able to breed this season??? I had plans for her...
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Cheers!
• Chelsea Lynn Gardiner
(and Frank M. Wood)

A healthy snake will NOT lose 200 grams from missing a few feedings. They can go MONTHS without feeding and show practically NO weight loss.
Somethings sounds fishy.
Did the ad state that the picture was only representative of what was for sale? If not, then the seller pulled a bait and switch IMO.

I know it stinks, but think if that female is bred to a spider, lesser, mojave, or another pastel, or any other combo, you will make back two or three times your money. Even if she doesn't breed this year, you are not going to put that much into her before the next breeding season starts. She will make you exponentially more than you spend onher in a lifetime, even it takes one more year. You did better than me when I got took for a ride, be thankful for that and move on.
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Happy Herping,
Jody Barnes
Royal Kreationz

1.0 albino
3.4 het albino
1.0 het caramel
0.2 poss het caramel
1.0 het pied
0.1 poss het. pied
0.4 normals (beautiful pastel sibs)

I don't know all the facts or the breeder in reference, but here are my thoughts.

It is very possible for a "900g" snake to be fed two or three large meals to balloon up to a "1100g" weight and be photographed, then lose 200g in several weeks by a breeder not continuing to feed an already "sold" snake. An "honest" breeder would not advertise as such, but the classifieds are filled with these types of deals and animals.

If you paid undermarket price, received an apparently healthy pastel that is eating, I would follow the advice already given. Mark the seller off your list and never due business again. The snake seems comparable in quality/size and IMO wouldn't be worth the fuss you'd have to go through.

I am not saying it's okay for this to happen, and I would also be upset. That is why I do not buy from people I don't know or trust, and when you do in this business you are always rolling the dice. It's a sad fact. IMO, as sad as it is, you lucked out on a bad/dishonest deal. Chalk it up to experience and breed that girl to something nice and as already mentioned, tripple your money back the first breeding.

I am sorry for your frustration.

Goodluck.

Brandon
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Morph Evolutions
www.morphevolutions.com

My thoughts: It's not the snake advertised - it's not a breeder won't be this year - if that's why you bought it (and unless you got a real good deal) - you got ripped. I would send her back.

But if you are 100% sure it's a female - you are happy with her (appearance, temperament, health and feeding, etc.), didn't pay breeder price for her and you are willing to wait to breed her next season - then just be happy with her and let it go.
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Tosha
JET Pythons

Insert Silly Quote Here

I know how it feels to feel like you ripped off. I purchased several proven breeder males from a "brig breeder" who is very well known and several of the males I received were about 550 grams. Now granted I didn't ask the weights, didn't think it really mattered for a "proven breeder" male. I just figured it was easier to learn my lesson and move on rather than waste my time dwelling on the situation, and I spent well into the five digit range with this breeder. Didn't even get an email response back when I asked some general questions. That's life!
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Ryan Sherman
Scottsdale, Arizona

I would consider a breeder male in the 500 gram range.....and sometimes even smaller. The first albino balls were bred at nearly 6 months old and around that size. Sucks the breeder didn't respond to your questions. Seems like MOST(not all) of the "Big" guys only care about the $$$. Too bad. These are beautiful animals and keep us all from losing our minds.

Brandon Osborne
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www.brandonosbornereptiles.com

I agree that a 550 gram male could be considered breeding age, but a proven breeder? Those same males are now at least 1100 grams. There is no way they were big enough to breed the prior season to be "proven". Mind you they weren't thin, just small.
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Ryan Sherman
Scottsdale, Arizona

The difference between 880 grams, which is 900 in my book, and the 1000 grams you were promised is about 10 percent different. I would either ask for a 10% refund, or get on with it. NOW, the big thing to me would be, does she eat rats, and eat well? If she was supposed to be 1000 grams, and is really 850 grams, and a poor feeder, I would be upset. IF she is 850 and supposed to be 1000 grams and is a great eater, I would not be bummed at all. All depends on how much you paid I guess.

Dave