Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Well forgive this rambling missive but I wanted to give a perspective from an old herper who is trying to learn new tricks and finds these new tricks hard on the joints. How many metaphors did I mix there?

By old I mean a "red tail" boa was a special snake when I bought it for $9.99 way back when and it was supposed to be captive born and bred which was also special. I had many snakes of all types with many different husbandry needs up through the early eighties.

Got married, had four kids now back into snakes. And interestingly I am not just into "pets" so much as what kind of genes does that animal carry. Don't get me wrong I have a very strong locality bent for preserving those locality (spelled habitat preservation) snakes. Have a few myself, eastern kings locality specific and will be bred as such.

But I find now in my late forties that if I am going to raise a male and female snake to maturity, spend the time and pay the upkeep costs to maintain that animal, I want the clutches to be spectacular in variety. Not because I believe I am going to sell these offspring for a "return" or profit ( I am a hobbyist and will always be so), but because morphs and their variety are on the edge of change in genetic language.

Now back to my original thread. "How much is that doggie in the window" I belive is a quote from some sappy Shirley Temple movie in the 30's, I could be wrong. So I go to the local snake show and after reading all your informative disscussions for maybe 3 years now and not really adding much, I find that when I want to buy a snake I now have a purpose beyond "it is a pretty snake" unlike my elation when I was told in 1969, "it's a red tail" I now say who bred them, where did their parents come from, is it het for this or that. I have lost my innocence, but knowledge will make you stronger.

Thanks for reading if you got this far.

depending on your goals and how much you intend to pay, acquiring animals these days requires you to ask thoughtful pertinent questions. just like you were going to buy all new appliances for your kitchen or any other big expense. there is so much out there with so many good breeders and enough poor ones, that if a buyer does not do their research, they won't get what they want, short or long term.
daveb

Absolutely right. Ask the pertinant questions as to origin of the specimen but as I have learned here on this forum is it really a "Ricks line lavendar extreme red" as I was told today or an imitation. That is what my eye and intelligence is dealing with. In other words can I visibly be able to differinitate between what I am being told the snake represents versus accepting someone's word.

Of course if I knew the seller and trusted him then no problem. But the new "trick" for me is to have as keen and "eye" for the present morphs as I did way back when.

Nowadays what something is het for is the most important part. It is the future of what next in herpetoculture. But there is nothing wrong with enjoying the simple basics. Its just when you get past 40 and have seen and kept everything it gets old. Not to mention what was once rare is now common in collections.

Buy hets! It's the best investment in herpetocuture. Heck, I even like possible hets. There was just a classified ad for a 2.4 group spotted albino hondurans for like $400. What a steal! People just don't understand the value in something like this and want the instant gratification. Like they can't handle keeping a normal phase of anything?

Another thing I do is instead of buying 1.1 pairs I prefer to get 0.2 (2 females) and purchase a lone male the following year. Females take an extra year to reach breeding size and lone males are always easy to locate and buy. Sometimes the price even comes down the following year if you hold off on getting a male. I try explaining this to people who buy my snakes when I don't have males. They still want the 1.1, Go figure?
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

I can answer your question as to why someone would want the 1.1. It is because they do not trust themselves to choose the right morph later at some other show, despite what a seller at that future show says.

I am more discrimating now than before. Sure I know a sick snake from a healthy snake, but with these morphs if I bought one from you, male or female, I know that I would want to buy the mate from you too if I wanted the same quality. Because I do not trust my own judgement when it comes to morphs.

I go to a show, I already have a snake het for 3x whatever, I am not going to trust my judgement on the purchase of a mate UNLESS I got the mate from the same breeder (or someone I trust which is a small circile). So when customers ask for the 1.1 from you Rainer what they really want is that for certain next year you will be able to provide them with the other mate because with all the morphs and morph look alikes out there they want to trust their 1.1 pair are for real. Whether they bought 1.0 this year or 0.1 next year.

And buyers who do not know you will not wait a year because they are afraid of their own wrong choices....because the morphs and false morphs are sometimes hard to distinguish to the untrained eye. They want 1.1 because it is a safe choice they believe.

Of course you can win them over with your sterllar pics which make me even salivate over the hybrids...did I say that..

Mike Cooper, snakelaw

I personally do not want the morphs as much as the "normal" animals.

I personally do not want the morphs as much as the "normal" animals.

But that was my point in the original post. If you want the original phenotypes that is great. But most people in this hobby are on a interest curve and want something out of the ordinary. To keep up with herpetoculture (breeding success)they want the most recent color morphs. From a personal perspective breeding something that I bred 30 years ago is not interesting. Once you have done that-been there, things have to move along. Also with breeding success comes selling offspring. Unless you are willing to sell most of your animals to a pet shop or broker it is not easy to move normal het-for-nothing animals OR even hets. Its just the way things are irregardless of what you want.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Guess I am weird, I have produced morphs of many species over the years and for some reason find they are a complete turnoff for me. Give me a Suroname over a sunglow or a San Matias over a Limburg albino. Not so much worried about selling them for high prices as doing what I enjoy. Wish it would get back to basics, but that is probably just a pipe dream.

well if you know what a san matias and a limburg is then you can probably imagine the pipe dream that went on before there ever was an albino. I remember talking and dreaming with friends of finding one. We imagined we saw them. We thought we produced dead babies that were amels. But of course they weren't. Then finally when the first albino w/c WW appeared it was huge. It is truly the cup of gold at the end of the rainbow. Today we can take it even further with combining those "dreams" with other "dreams" to bring something else into fruition. Its a blast!
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

Why would that be a pipe dream? Nobody is telling you what to do, you can keep whatever is legal. My guess is, your the only one in the way of your dreams. Cheers

Obviously you did not grasp what I said.

Cool, what did you say???????

I hatched western greenrats this year. Hmmmmmmm I believe I had the worlds first captive breeding with them, oh, somewhere back in the early seventies. So about 35 years between clutches. My that was fun.

A thought! folks now can breed whatever they want. From locality to as weird as you want. I think they should not complain about that.

A thought for you, would you breed a line of physically deformed snakes, you know, bent and twisted? I think not, but my bet is, in the future people will. Heck, some would now if they could. Remember, this is just a thought.

ALso, this fella seems to be getting in over his head. If you do not understand what your doing, DON'T do it. Work up to that. Learn what your doing, the information is out there and abundant. This is the same in any area of interest. Whats funny is many folks want to start at the top and work down. hmmmmmm.

This is the great difference between now and the sixties. Back then, there was no good information. Now there is tons.

This person has many options, like, hook up with someone who can show you the ropes or all the way back to learn it yourself. Both of these and all inbetween is fun. Heck, do all of them at once. Cheers

Congratualtions on the greenie successes.
I would love to see pics of those green rats Frank!
Can you post a pic or two? Or send me an email?
Thay are fantastic snakes.
Anyway, funny thing about those "twisted snakes"
I had a cornsnake that popped out w/ many bumps etc. and a "crowned head"..it was destined to be kingsnake food,right?
Well, somehow a girl saw it and absolutely had to have it.....
"I think it's cool!" was her remark...
So...to each his (or her) own I guess.. Someone would try to purposely hatch them out if they thought there was a market I guess..ha!
One thing I do not like about some of the remarks on these forums is how some of the posters act as if they know what is best for all of us, what we all want, what we all need, and what is absolutely right. All is relative to each of us and our wants/desires/wishes, right?
Business is business of course, but I don't like being lumped in with everyone else as has been done here in the recent past.
And I know you and others don't either..
I hope you are still going full guns with the monitors and such. Are they doing well??
Thanks for all the input.
:Mark
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Surrender Dorothy!

crimsonking.piczo.com/

Hi Mark, I guess you know snakes well, but not humans. They are what they are. Its all about that simple. If they did not lump all things in silly ways, there may be a lot fewer wars, or none.

The great thing is, those that lump you are not the ones you should care about. There are plenty out there that respect you for being you.

As you know, I have been lumped in all manner of ways. From being a kingsnake guy to a python guy to a monitor guy. The problem is, they are all wrong. I am a animal guy. I like them all. Actually I am more of a field guy that keeps reptiles to verify what he sees. hahahahahahahahaha.

I did not take pics of my captive stuff, but I have hundreds of greenrat pics from nature. Cheers

then could you grace us with a few of those field pics? You have "mad skills" when it comes to field pics. Great to hear from you FR.

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Todd Hughes

Nice holbrooki Tom! I dont see many that good looking for sale or just to look at period. Even in shed its a sweet snake!
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125 Orchid plants
20 other tropical plants and succulents
12 Bonsai Trees
28 Tarantulas & 1 Androctonus Scorpion
6 Planted Freshwater Tanks
1.1 Kankakee Bulls
1.0 Texas Red Bull
0.1 Kansas Yellow Bull
1.1 Costal Chocolate Cal Kings

Heheh, I'm Todd, Tom has some really cool Holbrooki! That is what I would call a really busy splendida with possible holbrooki in it. They are from an island population that has no gene flow except for possibly from hurricanes. here is one of my holbrooki.

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Todd Hughes

"One thing I do not like about some of the remarks on these forums is how some of the posters act as if they know what is best for all of us, what we all want, what we all need"

Hey Mark,
What about the people who act like they have been keeping for all their lives or that they are one of the "old timers" even though you know you should them around Daytona just a few years ago???

HAHAHA

Jason

oh man when smart azz coments go wrong.
That should have said "showed them around"

oops

Jason

well said mark,that part about self-appointed spokesmen,or whatever(my words not yours of course)....but hey i'm awfullt outspoken and opinionated too,and what are forums for.....i just try to respect others' tastes too.one way to look at it,let them all jump on the latest,greatest bandwagon of this morph or that,leaves more cool stuff available for me at any given show,right?

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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

I have already seen people marketing Burmese Pythons and Red Eared Sliders with no eyes as if it is a good thing, or better said cool thing to have in your collection.
I hope you're doing well Frank
Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com

Thanks Tom, I hope your doing well too.

I just got a little snake project to play with, so I may be messing with some for a while.

A friend put a pair of albino Thayeri on loan with me. And I happen to have a few normals of various color phases. Just something to have fun with.

About mutants, over the years I have hatched a few real weirdos. Once I hatched a suboc with no eyes, none what so ever. And I had a gardersnake born with one big eye in he middle of its head. Ickkie, thats enough of that stuff. Cheers

Frank,
you should have gueesed that somebody would bite if you through out a line like "amel thayeri" LOL....
Are they the same line as the one's pictured in the vivarium 10 years ago or so? I have the mag here somewhere.

Anyway, lets here all about them.

Shannon

Hi, I really do not know much about them. They were bred by a friend in town here. I really do not know the linage, nor do I care.

Another friend of my purchased them and simply gave them to me to breed for him. A gift horse and all that.

I assume they are kinda like eastern king and fla king amels. Most likely derived from a close cross. But I really do not care, as a mutation is a mutation.

Consider, anything that does not normally occur in nature is a mutation, that is, until it establishs a consistant population. So to me, all morphs, crosses, hybrids, and such are the same. I consider all them, for our enjoyment only. They really have nothing to do with whats normal in nature. And yes, I understand, In fact I know, mutations/hybrids occur in nature. Found lots of them.

For instance, crosses are not different then say a purebred, Fla, hypo, het for X, Y, and Z mutations.

The pair I have are extreme leonis phase. In fact, if they were not amels, they would have almost no black to start with. Again in my opinion, amels are only nice looking if they have contrast.

As I mentioned, I have a range of normals from milksnake with lots of black(will make a great amel) to super lite animals with very narrow bands. Cheers

Let's see some pics of them. Gotta be more than a few folks here that would like to see 'em.....share.
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Species kept:

Nuevo Leon Kings
Kunasir Island Rats
San Luis Potosi Kings
Axanthic Desert Kings
White Oak Gray Rats
Corns

Coming Soon:

Western Green Rats
Pale Milks

I would love too, remind me in a few days, as one is in shed right now. Cheers

Just my opinion, but I think we may be coming to a time when "normal" becomes "abnormal." Those who have been around the hobby for a while may be moving on to things other than "normals", but what about those who have gotten into the hobby recently? They've probably seen more morphs than they have normals. To them, the normals may be the unusual animals. I recently was a vendor at a show and actually did quite well selling "normal" animals, while many around me had more trouble selling morphs. I have no problem with morphs, they're just not my thing. I just wonder if any of the morph breeders out there worry about "morph overload" or something to that effect?

Todd

So when customers ask for the 1.1 from you Rainer what they really want is that for certain next year you will be able to provide them with the other mate because with all the morphs and morph look alikes out there they want to trust their 1.1 pair are for real. Whether they bought 1.0 this year or 0.1 next year.

You bring up that and many other good points. Personally I have never had a problem because I do my research. But for someone with a quick buck to spend i guess it makes perfect sense.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

I think refining morphs or locality snakes is a great side to casual keeping and maintenance. Making Everglades rats more orange, building a better Ghost Brooks, anything that could take your "pet" project and give it more practicle purpose. There's many things still to be done in alot of projects! That gives you something to share with the community of people who hang out here and at the shows, and adds some fun to your hobby. That's one way a guy with just a couple of snakes for fun could find the "big" guys coveting some of your animals. How cool is that?

YES!

Totally agree with your point...

What happened to the guys who took the time out to refine a morph, selectively bred offspring to get the desired look... the best you could get out of it!

MORE RED, MORE YELLOW, MORE ORANGE, MORE COLOR

how about some striping or aberrance...

That's the fun in morph breeding! As of late all I've seen are those that breed for a certain morph and when they get the end result they quit...

I hatched out my 1st Coral (aka Hybino) this season and the 1st thing that came to mind was "How can I make this morph even better" I already have a pair of snakes lined up for that project (From two of the BEST lines out there!)

Don't get me wrong I'm all for the new stuff, I've got a looooooooooonnnnnnnngggggggg list of all the potential morphs within the subspecies I work with, but there is always room for selective breeding.

1 of 4 ghost that didn't make it this season... can you say "Platinum Ghost" Brooks???... super light... hardly any black pigment... patternless/transparant belly... I get sooo disappointed when i think about these!

Let's see what happens next season

~ZF
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Royal ReptileZ

Try to find a hypo brooks that is not het for anything else. That is hard to find already. Yet there is plenty of refinement you could aspire to with just hypo's. Same with Blood red corns. Now they are all het for anyer or something. Soon you wont be able to find an albino Honduran that isn't het for snow. I think there's too much temptaton to move on to other traits before the refinement of the first trait. Sometimes these traits will show variability only after inbreeding and producing alot of snakes. It's possable to skip past something fantastic without it ever having been revealed. It's something of a numbers game and creates the possability of a newbie producing the reveal a year after the "pro" has moved on to his imaginary greener pasture. There's alot to be said for working with the trait you like and not looking for what somebody else thinks is the next big thing.

Those were definitely some VERY good points you hit on!

~Doug
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"Better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open mouth and remove any doubt!"

real good points. This year I produced the best looking tangerine albino hondurans that I have ever produced. They were a project I have been working on for 11 years now. They were 3rd generation of keeping the best every time and they were et for nothing. I had no trouble selling a pair for a very high price in Anaheim cause they were without a doubt the best looking hondos in the show and they were het for nothing.

There were lots of amels in there het for everything but they weren't eye candy.I got more for them than snows were going for.

Shannon

That rocks Shannon. I always like to hear about people doing well in the biz as opposed to the majority of complainers. I am content with things this year for sure... I did well with everything except Corns and believe it or not it seems like Pits were the fastest selling snakes for me, and I had a ton. I am holding back some stuff to try and improve the look of the animals. They're very nice looking snakes now but I think the best is yet to come Tom Stevens
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TomsSnakes.com