Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey all, first post here, although I have been lurking for a while.

I got my first pit last Wednesday from Vivid Reptiles, he is a 2006 male, about 22-23 inches long. Tim from Vivid said he was feeding on F/T large pinkie mice. From the research I have done that seems to be about a 3.5 gram mouse. I fed him one last Thursday, and he took it no problem, and he had his first "elimination" today (Sunday). I plan on feeding him every 7 days.

So all seems to be going well, but I was wondering how you know it is time to go to the next sized prey?

I have done some searching here and some people seem to be starting hatchlings on f/t fuzzies. Which from the research I have done range from 5-7 grams per mouse.

Other references have recommended feeding the p.d. deppei a reasonable sized prey item. Would anyone care to get specific on what is a reasonable sized meal is for a p.d. deppei?

Sorry for all the questions, but I am an Engineer that likes specifics. So any and all advice is appreciated.

A yearling deppei that is only 23-26 " is on the small side. Hopefully no regurge issues here. Certainly large enough for fuzzy mice. I believe that a lot of people keep feeding their deppei pinkies for too long because of regurge fears. I feed my jani hatchlings peach fuzzies from day one. All they need for the first 6 months is enough of a meal to put a visible lump in them. After that they are pretty much as bullet proof as corn snakes............40+ jani in my collection on any given day............JANI........the ARISTOCRACY of the pit group!

You can feed them larger rat pinkies/pups with no regurge problem. It seems that the hair is what causes regurges. I have known people to do this and raise them up quick.

Adult hairless rats are pretty common and not hard to get as well.
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"Yeah ya told me, and ya wrote it down too. But how the hell am I supposed to remember!"

I'm not sure that hair has much to do with regurg issues in youngsters. General consensus is that this is a result of too frequent feeding, too large a meal, and too high a cage temp. You must remember that the deppei complex is a higher elevation inhabitant, especially jani. They thrive at cooler temps and have a slower metabolism than North American pits.

My earlier point is that I think many deppei complex owners keep their hatchlings on pinky mice way too long. Pinky mice are nothing but little flesh bags with a bit of milk. I don't believe they have much in the way of bone structure.....think calcium that growing youngsters need to grow well. I'm sure that in the wild, lizards are preyed upon as well. I'm thinking every baby snake needs a little bone and fiber from day one. As my jani grow, I simply increase the size of the mouse until they are ready for rat weanlings. I've never had any issues with my jani going from mice to rats.

I am intrigued with the hairless rat concept. Gram for gram, a hairless rat would seem to offer more protein per feeding. I'm just wondering if adults would get imprinted on these guys and end up with not enough fiber in their diet. Anyone breed these "ugly rodents" for their snakes and can offer their experience?????

i agree,i've found hair to be an issue with one pituophis of mine.rat pups give you the weight less the hair,which is always passed anyway,i.e. seems to hold no value for the snakes.
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"with head raised regally,and gazing at me with lidless eyes,he seemed to question with flicks of his long forked tongue my right to trespass on his territory" Carl Kauffeld

Hatchlings also can vary in size, so what would be considered small, like a large pinky mouse for a baby bullsnake or northern pine, could be a good meal for a baby deppei deppei.

I also have a 2004 deppei from Vivid and although it has been a slow grower, he is growing and I fed him meals that were slightly smaller than what I feed my baby bulls, in his first year. Now he eats pretty good sized meals once every 7 days.

Every deppei breeder I have talked to about feeding deppei all said the same thing. Every 7 days is a great feeding regimen but most said that even going every 8-10 days for baby deppeis is ideal in their first year. They are known to be prone to regurge if fed meals that are too big when they are young. Also, I was told that they can reach adulthood in anywhere from 3 years to even 5.

I think that if the prey item doesn't leave any bulge at all, move the size up to where it leaves a noticable lump. They come from cooler climates, so they also do best at slightly cooler temps than what some would keep Tx. bulls, etc..

Congrats! I bet you will enjoy this snake very much!! Good choice!!

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Genesis 1:1

Thanks for the info guys, I appreciate it. I am just an overly concerned new parent. I weighed the feeder mice last night and they are about 4.0 grams. I think I will try a fuzzie mouse after his next feeding.

Is there a good rule of thumb for how long it should take from eating to pooping? On his last meal it took three days (almost to the hour). Is that a good way to gage the size of the meal? If yes, what is a decent amount of time?

He is a pretty feisty guy so I don't know how much of a lump he had and for how long. He went from the feeder box to his cage and then hid for a couple of days, so I really didn't get to observe him.

I use aspen bedding and he really like to burrow and stay "below ground." I am keeping the warm side of the tank at about 84°F and the cool side is room temp. Right now room temp is about 74°F, but with winter coming, that will drop down to about 70°F. I have seen him spend time on both sides of the tank.

Thanks again and here is a picture of the little guy:

Well, just a quick update. My little guy just ate a nice sized fuzzie mouse. It left a bulge, a noticeable one to me, but it wasn't huge. Now I just need to perform the Anti-regurge dance. LOL

Thanks again guys for your help.

Awesome!

Keep us posted!
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Genesis 1:1

Still looking good. It has been 4 days since he ate the fuzzy mouse. He had no regurge, and the lump was visible for about 36 hours. Now I am just waiting for him to relieve himself. I figure he should leave me a present either today or tomorrow.

I wish I would have weighed the fuzzy mouse before I fed him, but I would guess it was 6 grams, so 50% bigger of a meal than the 4 gram large pinky he was previously feeding on.

Good to hear!!

I would stick to one meal every 7 days or so for him.

Again, great choice you made!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Every 7 days is my plan, so for me that means every Wednesday. Easy to remember for me, plus I already have my log going to keep track of feeding, defecation, length, cage cleaning, etc.

So I have 24 more fuzzy mice left which means about 5.5 months worth of food. I would imagine that he will out grow the fuzzy mice size before I run out of fuzzy mice. When he does out grow the fuzzies, do I feed him one fuzzy and one medium pink, or just jump to the next sized prey?

When should I switch him to rats? Looking at the size and weight of mice and rats, after he out grows the fuzzy mice, he could step up to a pinky rat. But the step from pinky rat to fuzzy rat is huge based on the weight of prey (almost double). Is it better to switch as soon as possible to rats or feed mice until weanling size and then switch to fuzzy rats?

I will feed usually if the snake has pooped or not, in regards to your other post.

Deppei Deppei and jani, according to what I know and have experienced, can be slower growing.

If he has grown substantially by the time you run out of fuzzies, which at this time is hard to predict as to how fast he will grow, then the next size up should be considered.
As far as feeding one fuzzy and one medium pink, that is hard to say, since I am not seeing how big these are compared to your deppei. I am not a fan of feeding multiple food items, although I have before, but since deppei can be sensitive, I would usually just error on the side of caution and feed one item per feeding.

As far as switching to rats, rat pinks may be the next size up you would consider, if you want to go the route of rats. I would do hopper mice if you are wanting to stick with mice.
I use mice mostly until my adults are needing something that is much bigger than any mouse I can get.

The step up from pinky to fuzzy rat is really huge! I know what you mean!!! That is one thing I didn't like about rats. That is why I have found using hopper mice really works in that instance.

If you did hopper mice, then after that, switching to fuzzy rats may be better. I have found that hoppers are a good intermediate size between rat pinks and rat fuzzies, as the jump in size is really huge.

Take care!

Billy
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Genesis 1:1

Oh yeah, I forgot to ask in my above post:

What if the snake has not pooped since its previous meal, do you stick to the schedule and feed him, or wait to feed until the snake has defecated?

Well Iam late to show on this debate but I wanted to drop two cents in anyway. I have had some issues with the western form (P.d.deppei) doing poorly over the coarse of the past 11 or 12 years. I do not think that meal size or type is as criticle as temperature. Meal size comes into play in so much as if you feed a very large meal and then do not provide a thermal gradient for the animal it may have trouble digesting. But a hairy meal or a large meal will not inheirently end in regurgitation.

A herp friend of mine, Rob and I were discussing husbandry one afternoon when he made the statement, "Snakes spend thir entire lives eating, breeding, avoiding predation..but mostly adjusting their body teperatures."

I had always kept my animals at roughly ambient or room temperature but after dealing with some chronic low grade issues such as a normaly present GI bacteria blooming and creating problems and in another case some animals getting psuedomonus,also a very normal widespread organism, I realized that although my animals where doing ok my husbandry technique was not optimal or ideal.

I lack the resources to keep individual groups in the exact parameters that their wild counterparts would deal with, however I now provide them with a pretty significant thermal gradient. The heat tapes are set to 110 F and the room temp is set to 76 F.
They probably stick to the cooler side but they have the option of getting their temps up if needed to increase activity of their imune systems or speed the digestion of a larger meal. The heat tapes are on timers and run for about 4 hrs in the morning at sunrise and another 4 at sunset.

I had a lot of reasons for rationalizing not setting up a thermal gradient (cost too much, the snakes are at an ok temp., not set up to provide it....etc.) in the past but I am totally sold on it now and really do not have to deal with regurges, etc. anymore.

My formally problem groups such as deppei, jani, lineaticollis, vertebralis, deserticola are all bullet proof right out of the egg. They eat good sized rat pinks and fuzzies right away. If I were asked what I thought was the single most important thing a pit keeper could do to have good luck with his or her animals I would say provide a wide thermal gradient.

Great info Ginter!!!!
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Genesis 1:1